“Ten Items or Less (Fewer?)”

Your thinking is reasonable. Hyperdictionary states that 'fewer' is for countable items, and 'less' is for comparing adjectives (less healthy). But it also mentions less is "nonstandard in some uses but often idiomatic with measure phrases". An idiom is "an expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up." So basically it's just a bad expression that is going to be nearly impossible to destroy.

When I did some bookkeeping work this summer, I often heard less in a phrase like 'thirty-three dollars net income less five dollars tax'. This appears to be a correct usage. Could the 'x items of less' usage have evolved from this older sounding phrasing?

See my latest comment to this post:

http://painintheenglish.com/post.asp?id=225

Also some thoughts: When we think of "fewer," we think of a decreased quantity of individual items. When we think of "less," we think of a smaller item, or--here's the connection--a smaller GROUP of items.

So we could occasionally, and quite legitimately, have two ways of putting the same thing, like so:

"There is less emphasis on proper English usage these days." Or,
"Fewer people emphasize proper English usage these days."

That's where I think the confusion arises, though I doubt if most English speakers could articulate it.

I think that part of the confusion between "little/less" and "few/fewer" is that the other words serving a similar function do not share the subtly distinction. The opposite of both is "more."

"There is less water."
"There are fewer people."

"There is more water."
"There are more people."

"There is enough water."
"There are enough people."

"There is insufficient water."
"There are insufficient people."

"There is a lot of water."
"There are a lot of people."

Thus the existence of "less" and "fewer" is kind of peculiar, since our fair language passes on the opportunity for such a distinction in most other cases (except "much" vs. "many").

Beyond that, there is confusion over the fact that when using measurements, both are okay depending on the circumstances, though they change the meaning.

"I walked 1000 meters today. That's fewer than yesterday."
"I walked 1000 meters today. That's less than yesterday."

"I can afford less than five gallons of gas."
"I can afford fewer than five gallons of gas."

"I only have twenty-five dollars. Is that too little?"
"I only have twenty-five dollars. Is that too few?"

Anyways, while it is clearly a mistake to say "less people" or "less trips" or "less jobs," I also think it is an understandable mistake that is symptomatic of a real problem in the language (and no, I don't think the error is on the rise. If anything, it's probably less common that it was 100 years ago). This is especially true when talking about things that are usually treated in an abstract way, as though you were measuring water.

I work at a grocery store and recently noticed the express lane sign because of this entry. It reads "Fewer Than 10 Items." I suppose some people know the difference.

I have to point out, in light of Jun-Dai's post, that "much" and "more" don't share the same confusion. If I were to say, "I don't have many time to finish this," or, "I have too much pennies," you'd look at me funny.

Oops, I made an error,

I meant to say that "much" and "many" don't share the same confusion.

'Fewer than ten items' runs into a similar problem - it implies that ten items is absolutely unacceptable. Some supermarkets here have taken to 'Hand baskets only'... but does that mean I can take two full baskets through?

albertson's supermarket in burbank has "10 items or fewer" signs.

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7372

Some supermarkets do get it right.
I was pleased to see the little sign in the express queue at my Marks & Spencers reads "5 items or fewer".

6187

We teach elementary students that the symbol '

Dictionary.com states:-
Usage Note: The traditional rule holds that fewer should be used for things that can be counted (fewer than four players), while less should be used with mass terms for things of measurable extent (less paper; less than a gallon of paint). However, less is used in some constructions where fewer would occur if the traditional rule were being followed. Less than can be used before a plural noun that denotes a measure of time, amount, or distance: less than three weeks; less than $400; less than 50 miles. Less is sometimes used with plural nouns in the expressions no less than (as in No less than 30 of his colleagues signed the letter) and or less (as in Give your reasons in 25 words or less).
Personally, I dont think this really clears up the argument but thought iwas worth adding to the debate.

Just to say sorry for joining a debate on grammar and omitting to use spell check before submitting my comment!!!

1889

I have always thought of "less" as describing things that a person would not count out individually, and "fewer" as describing things that one would: "I made the drinks with less sugar, so they will contain fewer calories".

According to Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage, "less" refers to quantity or amount among things that are measured and to number among things that are counted. This has been the actually usages of "less" for a thousand years.

The prescription that "less" should not refer to things that are counted arose in 1770. It was someone's opinion, and somehow turned into a rule that lots of people think they have to follow.

You can read the entry here:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html

if ten items is a total then it's singular thus one must use less. e.g. i have less than ten items; however, i have ten less items than you do is incorrect. it should be i have ten fewer items than you do.

When dealing with money, percentages, time, etc whose units can be further reduced, use "less instead of "fewer."

The following statements are incorrect:
"Fewer than five gallons," "Fewer than 5-dollars," "Fewer than 5 percent," "Fewer than 10-miles"

Why? "less than 5-gallons" can mean 4.5 gallons (not countable. "Less than 5-dollars" can be $4.87. If the lowest denomination is one-dollar, then fewer would be correct.

Have you seen this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7590440.stm -

Tesco checks out wording change

Tesco says the change will be phased in

Tesco is to change the wording of signs on its fast-track checkouts to avoid any linguistic dispute.

The supermarket giant is to replace its current "10 items or less" notices with signs saying "Up to 10 items".

Tesco's move follows uncertainty over whether the current notices should use "fewer" instead of "less".

(Follow link to read more).

Doesn't it have to be "10 or fewer items"?

I believe you use "less than" when the quantity you are refering to can split into smaller segments.
For example: You would say "less than 10 dollars" because dollars can split into cents.
You would also say "less than 10 weeks" because weeks can split into days.

However "fewer than" would be used for quantities than can't be broken down.
I.e. You would say "10 items or fewer" because you can't break down items.

The English distinction between "mass nouns" (that take the "uncountable" adjectives such as "less" and "much") and the more common countable nouns that take "fewer" and "many" is a source of mischief to non-native speakers from languages that do not make similar distinctions. That many languages do without this distinction, and that even English seems to be abandoning it, persuades me that it serves no useful purpose.

"Ten items or fewer" strikes me as pedantic and just too, too correct. No marketer worth his salt would post such a thing. "Ten items or less" raises the ire of the typical pedant, so it is probably best to avoid committing the "error." The merchant is only left with avoiding the issue, which seems to have been the gist of many of the messages posted above.

Just remember, you can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor.

Wait, what?

he meant you can't overfill one.

No he meant you can overfill it.

Alarms, meltdown.

If it helps, think of it as an amount of 10 items or less, but with the first bit elided:

(An amount of) 10 times or less.

Get over yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J7E-aoXLZGY#at=96

@Paul Newcomb - Stephen Fry's paean to the wonders of the English language should be compulsory viewing for all those who think love of the language consists of criticising others for not following some artificial rule or other. I've already linked to it myself in these pages.

Tesco's decision was a victory for the grammar police and a sad day for those of us who believe in the primacy of idiomatic English over pedantry.

The truth is that "less" has been used for countable nouns since the earliest days of English, and by some of our finest writers, as Patrick Hadley has shown. If anything it is the strict differentiation between fewer and less that is "new", not vice versa. It seems to have started around 1770 when one man's idea (that fewer for number was more elegant) became elevated into a "rule".

And even where we might use "fewer" in more formal language, what some people call "careful writing", we often use "less" in normal spoken language; I know I often use "less" for people , for example - "There were less people than last time".

And it's not as though the rule doesn't have exceptions: Less is always used in mathematical expressions and after "one" - "That's one less thing I have to do today". And also, of course, when units can be broken down into smaller ones - "less than five miles / ten gallons / eight years old"

As for the supermarket signs, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage suggests that "less" is the usual choice in constructions like "Ten items or less", "500 words or less". And as with advertisements, aren't supermarket signs likely to come across as more friendly if they use the language people normally speak rather than some over-correct version?