Where are the commas?

Hi, to what I know, it depends on what type of English you use. British English doesn't put a comma before 'and', but American English does, although there is a compromise more or less.

A common point of contest. I use the comma before and, because I was taught by S&W believers, but some style books have it the other way. It is often a matter of style rather than correctness, though to me, the extra comma makes it clearer in many instances.

From the Chicago Manual of Style:

Q. Hello. In the sentence “I went to the store to buy eggs, milk and cheese” do you put a comma after “milk”? What is the standard now for comma usage after the second-to-last item? I have seen such sentences both with and without the comma. Thanks.

A. Chicago style is to put a comma there (it’s called a “serial” comma). There are times when that comma is necessary to avoid awkwardness or ambiguity: “My favorite combinations are green and yellow, blue and purple and black and red.” Since it is sometimes needed, and is never wrong, the simplest way to impose consistency without having to stop and think about each instance is to form a habit of adding the serial comma.

The rule I learned as a child in Western Canada is this:

Two or three items, no comma. More than three items, comma.

The rule I've learned as an adult writer: do whatever reads most clearly.

The serial comma sometimes helps clarity. It never diminishes clarity. Use it all the time and you'll never have to worry about whether you need it or not in a specific instance.

As a Brit, I find the use of the serial comma in the U.S. surprising. We were taught in school to write "A, B and C".

Some have argued that using the serial comma removes a source of ambiguity, as in "This book is dedicated to my parents, Ayn Rand and God". Adding a comma here would remove the ambiguity. However it should be noted that using the serial comma can also create a source of ambiguity, for example "We considered Miss Roberts for the roles of Marjorie,
David's mother, and Louise". This sentence would no longer be ambiguous, if the final comma were removed.

The guideline to always use the serial comma is is prefered in the U.S., except in some newspapers (e.g. New York Times)

In the U.K. and Commonwealth countries the normal guideline is to omit the serial comma. The exception here is Oxford University Press, where the serial comma is used.

My opinion on this amounts to an unreasonable and dogmatic belief. In documentation meetings, people have unfortunately learned not to ask my advice about this particular issue anymore.

I ALWAYS place a comma before the last "and" or "or" when writing for a U.S. reader or in non-business writing. I suspect this happens because of my speech patterns.

Now wait, I SAID "opinion." In business writing, I always use the comma if the documentation is intended for our U.S. locations or for a document intended to be used company-wide. When writing specifically for our non-U.S. offices, I actually do omit the comma. And then I get struck by lightning. (just kidding)

Mr. Crow... "...Ayn Rand and God...." Subtle and pretty funny, that. :)

As a newspaper writer and one who loves to study the English language I have been taught to add commas in front of the word 'and' unless it is a conjunction. An example would be: A boy came across some grazing cattle. There was a brindle, a brown, a black and white, and a red.
A comma after each cow's colour but one cow is black and white so the 'and' is a conjunction, therefore no comma is required. The 'and' before 'a red' is not a conjunction.

The point about the conjunction is a good one. I should have included it. Thanks.

I am from the old school of not using a serial comma before a conjuntion as that was the way I was taught in school.

I was corrected by a person who works for a grade school system. She said the comma is used, now, such as apples, bananas, and pears.

I still do not feel comfortable when I see that being done.

I'm still brushing ashes out of my hair after the last time I said this, but it turns out neither way is incorrect at the moment. Just be consistent within your document (don't mix them) and stay with the style preferred by the entity for whom you are writing the document (such as your school, business, or publisher).

Me, I put a comma where I stop when reading the series aloud. You don't usually say "apples (break) orangesnpears;" you say, "apples (break) oranges (break) and pears."

(strides into battle waving a pen and yelling, "Comma before conjunction!")

quick question submitted in the hopes that someone will answer it quickly: How do you write something like, "whether you prefer apples or oranges, green or blue, square or round, I still can't tell you if there should be an 'or' in front of the word 'square.'"? "whether you prefer apples or oranges, green or blue, or square or round"?

Hmmm. Well, since you appear to be indicating that the reader is to choose one option from the three given, perhaps you really mean, "...whether you prefer apples or oranges, green or blue, AND square or round"? (The reader could respond, "Apples, blue, AND square.")

"And" is a conjunction, and "or" is a disjunction. Conjunctions combine and disjunctions separate.

If you really mean for the reader to pick just one of the six things, you would write, "...whether you prefer apples, oranges, green, blue, square, or round." But it wouldn't make much sense unless you were under the influence of something quite mind-bending. :)

Hope that helps.

Hi
As to me to create the same page?

When you are trying to decide whether or not to put a comma before "and" don't fret. Whether or not to put a comma before "and" is a very disputed issue. Most people would say not to, some people say do. In reality it does not matter, whether you put a comma in front of and or not is optional. Although, if you were writing a paper you could put a comma or not, just as long as you are consistent throughout the paper.
Trust me on this one, I am an English Teacher from California.

Dear comma-or?

I understand your problem. I would say that it depends on the context.

If you were trying to ask whether or not the person liked them then don't put the "or" so it would be "apples or oranges, blue or green, or square or round"

If you were trying to ask which one in the list the person liked the best then you would write: apples or oranges, blue or green, square or round.

I know some will agree with me and some won't, but I was taught in school (some time ago, I might add) that the comma in question was optional. This is what I was taught and what appeared in print in my grammar textbooks throughout my entire education. I mean optional with no qualification whatsoever. Either way is completely correct.
I generally add the comma because it does usually eliminate any possible ambiguity, but I view this as purely a matter of personal preference and would never claim that the opposite view is incorrect in any way.

P.S. - In many postings on this website, I often see references to various style manuals as justification for all sorts of points of views. I would like to remind you all that, while useful to help support a particular position, style manuals are just that: STYLE manuals. They are not authoritative RULEbooks. A newspaper, magazine, or trade organization (etc.) uses one to create a uniform appearance in their writings. Ambiguous rules may be resolved in such a manual, but, that's because sometimes grammar rules ARE ambiguous. The manual doesn't claim to be right or wrong. It just establishes a common practise for the sake of consistency within the organization.

P.P.S. - Maybe I should start a new post for this, but I was taught that words like however, regardless, thus, and even the simple "but", when used in the middle of a sentence, should be preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma. Today, it seems that, especially with "but", it is preceded with a comma with no comma afterwards. I believe that modern grammar now accepts both but prefers the simpler. Comments?

The Oxford Comma (as a serial comma before the "and" in a list is known) is optional. It's all a matter of what makes the meaning least ambiguous and most aethetically pleasing.

I often use the Oxford Comma:

"Yesterday I ate apples, bananas, and cherries."

But in the following sentence I would generally drop it because doing so seems to fuse "cherries" more closely to "bananas", thereby making the division in the sentence by the second "and" stronger:

"Yesterday I ate apples, bananas and cherries, and then I bought some oranges."

When do you use a comma after the abbreviation of e.g.?

I can't believe this whole discussion. I spent 12 years in school learning where to put the bloody commas, 4 years in college, 3 years getting a Master's Degree, and umpteen years teaching grammar to high schoolers after that.The commas went in the same place the whole stinkin time!!! There was never any question about it, and if I ommitted one or added one too many, my professors painted in blood on my English Lit. papers!!! (extra punctuation entirely my choice!!!) I now find myself raising a grandchild and googling "Commas in a Series" to find out why his second grade teacher bled on his language paper!!! What's happening to this world?

Here's an argument given to me by a lawyer (for what its worth):

Example:

No comma before the conjunction:
I gave my money to Tom, Dick and Harry.

According to a lawyer, if this were a very simplified version of a will, a lawyer would view 'Dick and Harry' as a partnership, therefore dividing the sum of money between two groups, 1.) Tom; and 2.) Dick and Harry.

By adding the comma before the conjunction, you are able to avoid any confusion in this area.

Also, when a series becomes complicated (i.e. ...Tom, Washington D.C.; Dick, New York; and Harry, Atlanta...) you must insert the comma. Again, it seems to me that using a serial comma makes the most sense.

If the sentence goes like this,"....low, medium and high costs", should there be a comma preceding "and"?

i had an english teacher who told our class that the final comma is sometimes optional but she didn't know when, so she said to just always put it. Additionally, it would be useful to know that she was an idiot. In conclusion, please be referred to dariensan | Nov-13-02 4:30PM

Not being a native speaker, I wonder whether the problem with the serial comma in "This book is dedicated to my parents, Ayn Rand and God" could be solved by using "as well as" before "God". That is at least how I would attempt to reduce ambiguity in my mother tongue (German: using "sowie" - like "and" but sometimes good to use instead).

Another thing I am highly interested in is the use (or not) of a comma after "that" in the following two sentences:
- Note that(,) while Smith has good ideas, he cannot put them to practice.
- Everyone should know that(,) in 1994, most cars used on American roads were Japanese ones.

I would certainly use the comma in the second instance (parenthetic expression) and feel tempted to do so in the first as well.
However, I have seen ex. 1 with one and two commas, ex. 2 with none, one and two.

Should have been "into practice" ...

@ Archie: Isn't even the last "and" technically a conjunction? What else can it be if it is not a conjunction?

"A boy came across some grazing cattle. There was a brindle, a brown, a black and white, and a red."

We had apples, oranges, and grapes for snack.

I was lead to believe it was Sally.

I am a younger member of the administrative team and my writing is often corrected by an older gentleman who puts that extra comma after the second word in a list of three. Just wanted to make sure I was correct about what I was taught in college and what speech actually sounds like.

Which is correct:
She bought apples, oranges and pears.
OR
she bought apples, oranges, and pears.
I was taught in college that the first one is correct and matches speech patterns.

When making a list, does a number for example “one solar sensors cover”, does one have a comma after it?

“Add grapes and lemons to the grocery list ,John suggested

the first one i think lol

that movie in my opinion is the funniest film ever made.

that movie in my opinion is the funniest film ever made

Add or remove commas, if necessary, until the sentence has correct punctuation.
Mr.
Crocker
can
juggle
oranges
and
bananas
at
the
same
time.

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