“Anglish”

Heard a smidgensworth of that exact same Americanism thing by way of the wireless. Hadn't the foggiest that bods like: 'freight train' and 'train station' are both Americanisms, and thy are outdoing (so-called *British* English) 'goods train' and 'railway station'

Hmmm..is a 'railway set' without the 'trains' and a 'train set' without the 'rails' !! (?)

American English's clout and unlikeness gets far too overcooked. Britain's media elite don't even give an honorable mention to the inroads Jamaican English has had on the English spoken in England. Nobody ever talks of 'Jamaican English' v '*British* English, so why can't we just say American English v English, full stop. Anyway, Jamaican English and Scots English would have to be the first stop of any serious linguist of isms on English. Every man, woman and child in the land, know them two are the two most wayward. JE's clout even fiddled with Britain's accents!

Might wield them unknowingly, but only got so much time for *Americanisms* especially its creepy obessession with casting every Hollywood English actor as some kinda of fiendish swarthy baddie, looking like he's just landed out of somewhere like Marseilles or Naples!

*In truth the actors are often not even English - just Americans casting as English any swarthy baddie they can lay their hands on*

@jayles:

Americans also use "I've got" for "I have" (possession), and gotten.

""Did you do your homework already?" sounds wrong" It doesn't sound wrong to me. Is it grammatically wrong in American-English and English-English?

@AnWulf: LOL!! Yes, we should teach that guy (Americanism- fellow, bloke, man (after Guy Fawkes); Norman rewording of the Teutonic name Widu--whence also It. Guido) a thing or two about a thing or two when it comes to true English!

American English - The History of English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbvumrknAKs

Laugh-Out-Loud Funny!!!

Adventure of English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtGKXN-K6Y&feature=related

Very interesting segment about American English.

Ængelfolc: "Did you do your homework already?" not wrong, just American; Brits use 'Have you done' with "already", "just" "yet" and "ever"; unless of course they've succumbed to the American influence.

"...inroads Jamaican English has had on the English spoken in England."

I don't know of any. Jamaica got English from England. It was a British colony. Now, Jamaica has stronger economic ties with America, and American sway is greater.

Also, in English, American English is as of now in the limelight. I can't see how "American English's clout and unlikeness gets far too overcooked." It is a truth that cannot be thoughtfully spurned or overlooked.

@jayles: ""Ich habe tatsaechlich mich gerade gefragt, ob Sie schon ... das englische Hoeflichkeitssystem tatsaechlich zu akzeptieren..."

Ich erkenne die Art an, wie die Briten Englisch sprechen. Ich finde die Sprachart unnoetig hoeflich und allzu sanftmuetig. Es scheint mir, dass man immer einen Eiertanz auffuehren muss. Ueberempfindlichkeit und politische Korrektheit sind Feinde der Kultur . Alte Braeuche sterben dadurch aus.

Meiner Meinung nach...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365751/How-British-English-Americanisms-ARENT-taking-language-research-shows.html

Of note:

* ‘Americans tend to be much better at stressing the French origins of words such as garage and ballet.’

* '...American English remains very conservative and traditional in its speech patterns.’ (closer to the roots?!); '...in many instances it is the American speakers who are sticking to more ‘traditional’ speech patterns.'

* 'British English speakers are refusing to use American pronunciations for everyday words such as schedule, patriot and advertisement.'

ERA in Am.Eng. >> Eh-rah or Ee-rah, not ERROR

Bouquet in Am.Eng. >> is said BOTH ways listed in the article.

Neither in Am.Eng. >> is also said BOTH ways.

Glacier in Am.Eng. >> most often, Glay-Sher.

Semi >> again, BOTH ways are said.

Nuclear >> BOTH

Garage >> is close to French pronunciation, but there are many dialectical variations.

Iraq >> BOTH

Vase >> Vayze/ Vayce/ Vahz

Lasso >> Las-so ("a" as in 'at', "o" as in 'home')

Research >> Both ways are said.

FILLET is not Fil-let, but Fee-lay (as in French). As for the SCHEDULE (from Greek skhida) "Shedyul", "Skedual" debate---->>> the Brit way of saying SCHEDULE is from French, while the U.S. uses the original Greek pronunciation. The same original Greek pronunciation is used for SCHOOL (Gk. skhole) in Am.Eng., too.

I really like the idea of Anglish. I mean, I'm not expecting English to go back to its roots overnight, but I don't really enjoy the Latin/French sounding words of English specifically. They sound too foreign. Have you ever heard a Brit say "garage"? Sounds awkward to me. Besides, wordbook makes much more sense than dictionary. The complete annihilation of latinate words may be drastic, but at least the substitution of Anglo-Saxon words is, to me, appealing (and will help me learn German).

Funnily enough, a 'school' (of Fish) is from Low Germanic schōle/ O.E. scolu, sceolu/ W.Frisian skoal

Ængelfolc: Ich bin fast der selben Meinung; ich hasste auch das damalige Klassensystem und verlasster England als junger Mann, und bin kaum zurueck. Ich haette nach Osteuropa uebersiedeln sollen, aber damals kam das nicht in Frage.
Beim Auslandsgeschaeft ist es doch klug, vernuenftig und beruflich, das fremde Kultursystem in Betracht zu ziehen. Seien Sie flexibeler!! m f Gr

Ængelfolc: "a 'school' (of Fish) is from Low Germanic schōle"; we can also say "a shoal of fish" in English, meaning a large number.
Also I forgot to mention in Am English 't' is often pronounced as 'd' so that 'water' sounds like 'warder'.

@jayles: "we can also say "a shoal of fish" in English"

You are right.... 'shoal' is from the same root as 'school (of Fish)". "Shoal" is from the Low Germanic way of saying it (schōle, phon. 'shōl'), and "School" is from the Dutch/Frisian way (skoal, school, phon. 'skōōl'). The word-form 'school' (place of learning) was influenced by 'school' (of Fish).

"Am English 't' is often pronounced as 'd' so that 'water' sounds like 'warder'."

Seems to me that it depends on where you are in the States. I have heard it said (phonetically) wah-ter, wah-der, wudder, war-der, waa-der, asf. Much different 'a' sound, than in British 'woah-ter' or 'woh-ter'.

Here is a long lost word that could be brought back into the fold: Yare (said 'yair' or 'yahr').

It means 'ready', prepared (for action), 'brisk', 'eager'. Also, 'agile', 'lively'. Of a ship >> answering swiftly to the helm; easily handled; Responding easily; maneuverable.

"Make your ships yar(e)!"

"She was yar(e)."

"Fall to't yarely, or we run ourselves aground"- Act I, Scene 1, TEMPEST, by William Shakespeare

"...you shall find me yare..."- Act IV, Scene 2, Measure for Measure, by WIlliam Shakespeare

Thoughts? Anyone?

Already revived by Beatles: "She loves you, yare, yare, yare"

@jayles: I just heard Russell Brand say "woeuh" for 'water' in the movie "Get Him to the Greek". The 'T' and 'R' are all but lost.

A big difference I see between today's Am. Eng and Br. Eng is that Am.Eng pronounce 'r' a lot more. Only in the Southern U.S. is the 'r' softened.

Almost gone are the days of the lovely rolling English 'r'! ;-(

@jayles: May I put forth "anpassungsfaehiger" for "more flexible/adaptable", instead of "flexibler"?

Ich frage mich...'anpassungsfaehiger'...Was wollen Sie damit sagen? Ich bin einfach gegen die kulturelle Vereinnahmung durch politischen Korrektheit und ermutigte Teilnahmslosigkeit. Daran ist nichts auszusetzen, oder?

Ængelfolc: Thank you; I did wonder about "flexibel"; "anpassungsfaehig" is much better; your German is very good indeed!! ;=)) There is actually nothing personal to you in my comment; it is just standard advice when dealing with overseas trade.
BTW I sometimes set my students to write an essay entitled: "The American influence is too widespread and not necessarily benign"; that usually stirs things up!

Ængelfolc: on second thoughts I think "kompromissfaehig" (wenn das auch existiert) is more what I had in mind. I think it is all too easy to just want to "win" when negotiating, (at least that's what my last wife told me!). Maybe I am just being too English when I expe

expect the other side to compromise, not me!

@jayles: "your German is very good indeed!!"

Thanks! I should hope it is... I grew up speaking it! I try to learn all I can about whichever tongues I choose to speak. I try not to take my Muttersprache for granted. I work on my German like I do English. I am always mindful to use German words, not loans, whenever I can.

Same thoughts, other tongue.

@jayles:

I forgot...."kompromissfaehig" sagt man nicht..."Kompromiss schliessend" heisst "compromising". Ich finde "kulturellen Kompromiss" eine gute Vorstellung nicht. Kompromiss bedeutet, dass man etwas behaelt, und etwas verliert.

Uncompromising -> unuyielding
Compromise (n) -> the middle ground
"able to compromise" -> "willing to find middle ground"
I don't think "yielding" really can be used to mean compromise as it suggests a one-sided deal.

@jayles: What about...?

Compromise >> Bargain (Frankish *borganjan)
>> Deal
>> Trade-Off
>> Fifty-Fifty
>> Understanding

Ængelfolc: yes but "a bargain" suggests paying less than a fair value in English, although bargain as a verb does not have this connotation. "Trade-off" or "give-and-take" come closer to the true idea of compromise where neither party is really happy with the deal but it seems to be the only solution in the circumstances. American books tend to categorize this as a lose-lose situation; but it's not necessarily so. "fifty-fifty" I have even heard in Hungarian! such is the penetration of English! but it only truly applies where the parties "split the difference". As you may know the English view marriage as a series of (poor) compromises ending in divorce, which then liberates us to become our true selves again, happier without the constraints......

Ængelfolc: As you may be aware in business the English usually want to find a compromise solution; indeed if there is not a bit of "give and take" they may feel they have been steamrollered. Sometimes it is worth giving them a "rabbit garden" to feed on. i.e something to keep them happy without compromising on what you want. There is a very English expectation that if I give a bit, you should give a bit too and eventually we will meet somewhere near the middle. On the other hand, I wouldn't try this technique with, say, Russians, as they don't play by the same rules!

@jayles: ""...a bargain" suggests paying less than a fair value... "

I think when one 'compromises', that's what happens, no matter what is going on.So how about the ever colorful, "hammer out a deal"? "Horse-trade"?

""Trade-off" or "give-and-take" come closer to the true idea of compromise where neither party is really happy with the deal but it seems to be the only solution in the circumstances. "

I agree with the Americans: compromise = lose/lose. The outcome is never fully taken on by either group, and therefore is a waste of time, energy, and resources. It is better to walk away from a deal, if you are not totally happy with it. I reference your divorce example the make my point! ;-)

My 2 Marks...

Let's play..."Instead of the Latin..."

Instead of the Latin...'inappropriate', lets put the Germanic/English 'unbeseeming' in its stead.

Ængelfolc: unfortunately the term "inappropriate behavior" has become a PC term of abuse. It is bandied about ad nauseam. It is symptomatic of modern influences that I do find it difficult to even find non-Latinate substitutes. (Ah stand-ins!) It is almost like learning a new language! That said, "unbecoming" or "ill-befitting" or "unmeet" behavior, would be better I think.
Whilst I understand your interest in wordroots, I don't find wordroots help students to learn english wordstock very much. For instance, I would guess a link between "devastated" and "waste" but I don't think it would be very helpful. Likewise, crisis, critical, criterion, seem to be linked to "riddle" as in "riddled" with bullets; but the link in meaning is so obscure it doesn't help; unless of course one had already learnt Greek.

Lastly, I stand by my remark: "indeed if there is not a bit of "give and take" they may feel they have been steamrollered." ; English people sometimes feel squashed when trying to negotiate with Europeans; things are too categorical = too "take-it-or-leave-it"; as a trainer my biggest problem was a sort of incomprehension on the part of the trainees, an inability to hear, understand, and take on board what I was saying, a sort of stick-in-the=mud Weltanschauung that brooked no change, when the reality is that different people do things in different ways and one needs to be a little yare in one's tactics.

@jayles: "link in meaning is so obscure it doesn't help; unless of course one had already learnt Greek."

I am with you on this. English root words help native English speakers; Greek and Latin roots help those using Greek and Latin words (like scientists). It seems to me that root-word explanations could only help in teaching a language (esp. understanding). I must say I am not a language teacher, so I have no experience to draw from. It just makes sense to me.

For example, 'devastate' and 'waste' are linked through L. vastus (though 'waste') is from Frankish *wostijan, but influenced by, and merged with, L. vastus to make one word). The prefix 'de-' means "completely, utterly, totally, not, undo, down, off, away," asf, hence 'de' ("completely") + 'vastated' ("wasted"). Explaining this wouldn't help? At least maybe teaching the meanings of prefixes?

"...different people do things in different ways and one needs to be a little yare in one's tactics."

We agree here! Great use of 'yare' and 'brooked'...!

Ængelfolc: prefixes we do eg expose, repose, impose, opposite etc. Sometimes it feels as if one is teaching latin AND greek eg television/telephone/phonetics//video/vision-> farsight/farsighted..... there is however a lack of context with this technique (technology/technical/technician respect/inspect/aspect/prospect/spectacular/spectacle et cetera. Amor vincit omnes....sine qua non... per ardua ad (Opel) Astra... eloszor latint kellene tanulni

@jayles: "How would one teach "anticipated"?"

Aren't most of your students Romance speakers? They should have not problems with Latin and Greek word-bits. I would also say 'anticipate' is more like "to forestall" or "prepare for (something)".

"Sometimes it feels as if one is teaching latin AND greek" You are when you aren't teaching English rooted words. ;-P

Rather than 'anticipate' (to expect), why not say, await (Frankish *wakhton), foresee, foretell, look forward to, see coming, wait for...asf. When meaning " act in advance of", say forestall, block, hinder...asf.

EX1. I anticipated this reaction. >> I foresaw this reaction.

EX2. I anticipated his every move. >> I blocked his every move.

Then you don't have to worry about teaching Latin and Greek! ;-) Maybe one of the keys to reviving true English is to have teachers teach the meanings of Latin and Greek words with English ones.

Television >> Far-sight/ Farseeing
Bicycle >> Two-Wheeler
Automobile >> Self moving/ Self Mover
Helicopter >> Whorl-Wing/ Whorled-Wing (this could replace the Greek word easily). "Whirlybird" has been said instead of helicopter, too.
Aeroplane/ Airplane >> Skyship, Skycraft, Airship, Aircraft (although, 'air' is still Greek)

Automobile >> Self Going (true English)

Ængelfolc: We get people from all over here: S America, SE Asia, Japan, Saudi, Euros, and Russians. Can be good fun!
Latinate words are often taught thru English equivalents: respect/look up to; despise/look down on; postpone/delay/defer/put off. But the usual story - for business and uni they need the latinate words as well. Until the textbooks change there is no other way.
The following comments on German speakers of English come from a good source: "Learner English" editor Michael Swan, a useful bible of first-language influences, which devotes about ten pages each to over twenty different languages.

"Among the features of German which
can give rise to a `German accent' in English are:
± More energetic articulation than English, often with tenser vowels,
more explosive stop consonants (/p/, /t/, /k/); and more lip-rounding
and spreading.
± Different intonation patterns.
± Frequent use of glottal stops before initial vowels, giving a staccato
effect.
± Tendency of some speakers to use a generally lower or higher pitch
than most British people.
Intonation
This varies widely over the German-speaking area. North German
intonation is quite like English. South German and Austrian intonation
often has long rising glides in mid-sentence.
Swiss speakers may end sentences with a rise followed by a slight fall: this sounds odd in English.
Certain features of German intonation transferred to English (to-
gether with the more energetic articulation which is common) can make
speakers sound peremptory. It is worth giving special practice in
wh-questions (which German speakers may produce with a rising
intonation which can sound hectoring to the English ear), and in
requests.
Juncture
A German word or syllable beginning with a vowel is often separated
from what comes before by a glottal stop (instead of being linked, as is
usual in English). This can create a very foreign-sounding staccato
effect:
?
in ?and ?out (German ?aus ?und ?ein).

Automobile >> car (yes it's welsh; why not!)

@jayles: "Automobile >> car (yes it's welsh; why not!)"

Nothing wrong with 'car'. It has been in English since the 1300's, meaning a "wheeled wagon". It was first seen in Gaul (allegedly by Caesar). It is one of the few CELTIC words in English, although not wholly Welsh: Breton 'karr' (chariot); Welsh 'car(r)' (raft, frame); Old Gaelic 'cár' (a cart or raft for carrying things on); Irish 'carr' (a cart, dray, waggon).

It is said that the English tongue got the word from from Gaulish karros. The PIE root *kar, kers- means "to run, to move". Also, the German word for "wheel-barrow/ barrow" is die Schubkarre/ karre; the 'karre' bit is from Celtic car(r).

Other words with the Celtic root 'car', through L. carrus >> cargo, charge, chariot, cart, career, and carry. Latin also borrowed 'car' from Gaulish 'karros'.

I guess what I meant was, it might help to teach the word-bits if one were to put the English word akin to the Latin or Greek in its stead.

"...words starting wh- wr- which are wontless to German..." Not all true. German had 'wr-' words, and many, many 'w' words. Here are some 'wr-' words:

Wrack
Wrangelinsel
wrappen
Wrapstachel
Wrasen

I must say that all of the 'wh' words are borrowed from English, like Whiskey. If one looks in a German/ English woordbook, one would see that the the two tongues have about the same amount of 'w' words.

For what it is worth...

"Can't think of any other sister Germanic languages which can randomly let loose so many w- words in any given everyday sentence as English..."

Wenn wir wiederaufleben, werden wir uns wundern, wie wir ohne dich weitergegangen sind. Wohl bekomm's.

W word-strings are not only able to be done in English.

"Here's one for ya ... luxury - O.Fr. luxurie, from L. luxuria ... Even in Icelandic ... It's luxus."

Instead of L. luxury >> high living, rich living.

"That's a luxurious fabric" >> "That's a rich fabric"

"it might help to teach the word-bits if one were to put the English word akin to the Latin or Greek in its stead." Yes we we do but there are two issues. As a native speaker I learnt "contain" and "contents" from context without knowing or thinking about the wordroots, so wordroots are not always needed for learning. Secondly one had to contend with the sheer non-standardness of English. Eg retain->retention ; contain->containment; contend->contention; maintain-> maintenance; and so on. Likewise endings: no sooner has one said that -ance/ence are (Fr) noun endings than up comes "influence" which is also a verb. It is at best "highly idiomatic", or sometimes "highly idiotic". The other issue is that for non-native speakers we are in fact just concentrating on (highlighting?) the 5000 most common words plus another 2000 most common academic words. This is well below the 15000 plus that a native speaker entering university usually has at their command.

'luxurious'' ...

The first I knew such high life was possible was hanging out at a party bursting with blumpen upper classes dripping in bling. I kid thee not, one goer showed up kitted out in the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind...

/the lumpen working classes/

....

the 'blumpen' upper classes'

?

the 'overlumpen' - elites ?

lumpen - (classes)...

the working lumpen, the middle lumpen and the upper lumpen

"As a native speaker I learnt "contain" and "contents" from context without knowing or thinking about the wordroots"

Isn't this the best way to learn a new tongue anyway? Maybe learning word-roots could be helpful in widening and deepening the understanding, once a student can speak basic English.

"contend with the sheer non-standardness of English."

A big problem with English....all the more reason to get rid of Latin and Greek words. Then, we can also change spelling rules! One can dream...

"15000 plus that a native speaker entering university usually has at their command."

15,000 seems rather high. I have ready many University writings, books, dissertations, asf. What percent of the 15,000 are tech/science words? How many are everyday words?

All of the following were screwed up by the sound shift:

retain->retention: Retain should truely be spelled 'reten'

contain->containment: Contain should be spelled 'conten'

maintain-> maintenance: Maintian should be spelled 'mainten'

It would cut down confusion if English went back to these original forms.

INFLUENCE >> L. in + L. fluō; The word we have is do to French spelling corruption of the Latin īnfluēns. The 'fluēns' bit is the present participle of L. fluō. English could solve this problem simply by going back to the original Latin spelling, before the French "influens".

@Stanmund:

How do you mean "lumpen" in your examples? When one talks about a "lumpen group", lumpen is taken to mean "outcast", not classes of people.

In German, "Lumpenproletariat" is a word coined by Karl Marx. He meant it to mean the "trash of all classes", the lowest tier of the proletariat, the "ragamuffins of society".

"Lumpenproletariat" literally means, "Ragged/Raggedy/ Tattered/ Ragtag/ RiffRaff/ Scoundrel Laboring Class" >> G. der Lumpen ("rags") + L. Proletariat ("poor working class/ wage earners/ lower class").

"Nur Lumpen sind bescheiden, Brave freuen sich der Tat." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Anglishers could be called "lumpen linguists".

Instead of L. luxury >> "High on/off the Hog", meaning "affluent and luxurious". A 19th century Americanism.

@jayles:

Hungarian kilincs "door handle" < Old French clinche < Frankish *klinka (cf. Ger. Klinke)

The Franks are everywhere!

Ængelfolc: "Hungarian kilincs "door handle" < Old French clinche < Frankish *klinka"
It is one of the ironies in Hungary; they are taught at school how their forefathers kept up the hungarian language and culture in the face of so much oppression since losing the battle at Mohacs in 1526. Unfortunately it turns out that it's just not true; hungarian is full of borrowings, mainly from turkish, schwab German, and slavic and other uncertain sources. DNA studies have shown that they are indistinguishable from surrounding slav/german people. "We are descended from Arpad, Kuba, Tas et al." is a convenient nationalistic myth. Much as I love hungary, hungarians, and hungarian, I think the constant demands for hungarian autonomy in Slovakia and Serbia, this whole backward-looking focus on Trianon, the situation of the gypsies and the activities of the Jobbik, are undermining the working-together of Europe. We have enough trouble holing Europe and the Euro together as is; and after two massive European wars last century we cannot let Europe fall into some sort of Balkan tragedy again.

Ængelfolc: "15,000 (words) seems rather high." I based this figure on research done at Victoria University by Nation, Vine et al. They also compiled an academic word list used by Oxford University Press on the internet. Quite what counts as a "word" is of course not clear, nor can I remember how they arrived at this figure. Not really worth arguing about, although of course in the USA the count might be lower.......
The high wordcount for native speakers may include all those words one learns at school from reading Shakespeare, Chaucer, GM Hopkins etc. For instance I always remember "Wipfel" from "Ueber allen Gipfeln ist Ruh'" but have never heard the word used..... Nice word, and Bing sang where the treetops glisten, but otherwise hardly key core wordstock; so what all these 15000 words are is a damn good ask, I agree

The high percentage of latin-rooted words does mean that romance language speakers can operate at a fairly advanced level of English in about a quarter of the time it takes someone from SE Asia. English does have its upside, for global communication even if it doesn't make purists happy.

Über allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh'
In allen Wipfeln
Spürest Du
Kaum einen Hauch;
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest Du auch.

Still so beautiful; had to post it!

@jayles: "Not really worth arguing about, although of course in the USA the count might be lower....... "

What makes you write this?

Ængelfolc:"...in the USA the count might be lower....... " Not to be taken seriously!!!
It would be surprising indeed if there really were any significant difference for the USA.

Interesting article ... but I've never heard of the so-called American politic phrase. Some of the comments were spot on.

As for the 'W's in German ... just remember that they're pronounced as 'V's ...

No sense in say "unbeseemly" when "unseemly" already exists for inappropriate.

@Stanford ... You should check a dictionary/wordbook before attempting to create word to make sure that it isn't already being used with a different meaning. Lumpen means "boorish" and "stupid".

@AnWulf...."I've never heard of the so-called American politic phrase." What phrase?

"As for the 'W's in German ... just remember that they're pronounced as 'V's ... " I think Stanmund was only talking about the use of the letter, not the way it is said. Although, you are right.

And, the reason W is named "double U" is because it was originally "uu" in Old Ænglisc and Old High German (more commonly so). Old Ænglisc used the rune wynn for a time; the Norman writers gave us the form "W".

"Although, you are right." ->>> You are right, though. (Sie haben doch Recht.)
OMG Y am I so picky???

@jayles: "OMG Y am I so picky???" Sie sind ein Lehrer! Jedenfalls danke für den Tipp. Ich weiß es wirklich zu schätzen.

"You are right, though." >> "Sie haben dennoch recht." (too be picky! LOL).

I was saying that AnWulf was right despite the fact that I thought Stanmund was talking about the use of the letter W instead of the sound. How is "although" wrong here?

Ængelfolc: "Although" can only be used as a conjunction (like "obschon", "obgleich". One cannot comma it off like "However". ("Obgleich, Sie Recht haben" would be wrong in German too). "Though" is the same as "although", but it can ALSO be used as an adverb (after a comma) at the end of a sentence, meaning roughly "allerdings" or "trotzdem". It's a bit informal.
"Dennoch" translates as "nonetheless"; but in English that's an awful mouthful!
"You are right, however" is good, though.
These little words indicating attitude I find really difficu

@jayles: Thanks! "Obgleich, Sie Recht haben" >> yes, very awful!

""Dennoch" can mean 'nonetheless', 'however', "all the same", "yet" among others, and "aber dennoch" means "even so". It is quite a handy adverb to know.

"Although I made a fragmented sentence, my meaning was understood."

Verbindlichsten Dank, Herr Lehrer.;-p

"Sir Thomas Elyot... was responsible for many Latin and Greek borrowings, like 'animate', 'education', 'encyclopedia', 'frugality', 'metamorphosis', 'modesty', 'obfuscate', and 'persist'. All these words occur in The Governor..."--Early modern English (1997)
By Charles Laurence Barber

What we hold true today, about Latin words, was true back then: meanings of Latin and Greek words are not obvious to readers who do not know Latin and/or Greek.

How did Sir Elyot get around this? He use English to explain the meaning of the new word. For example, he wrote things like this, "...the beste fourme of education or bringing up of noble children...". He already is linking the word "education" with "noble"...pretty sneaky. Sir Elyot firmly believes in, as he wrote, "the necessary augmentation of our language."

Anyway, if Sir Elyot and his ilk flooded English with Latin and Greek loans this way, it might work for bringing old and lost words back in to English.

Thoughts anyone?

To further understand how the English tongue became swamped with Latin loans, one may want to read 'The Civile Conversation" (c.1581) by George Pettie.

Pettie holds that borrowing from Latin is very worthwhile. He says, thusly, "...for it is in deed the ready way to inrich our tongue, and make it copious, and it is the way which all tongues have take to inrich them selves." His main thought was that somehow English was under developed, unlike French, Italian, and Spanish. The latter were rich because of their Latin base, and Latin was rich because of it's Greek loans.

Yikes! How unthoughtful of Mr. Pettie! The sad thing is that, in the 17th century when most of the marring to English was done, it was broadly held by many "scholars" that the flood of loan words from Latin-French and Greek were needed, and that these words had made English richer. For me, at least, this is an unsettled, open thought.

Instead of L. measure >> M.Eng. mete (Old English metan, Old Saxon metan; cognate with Dutch meten, Old Norse meta, Gothic mitan, German messen to measure).

Meanings:

1.to distribute or apportion by measure; allot; dole (usually followed by out): to mete out punishment. >> to mete out punishment.

2. to measure (although archaic)

EX. "That board has already been meted."

EX. "Can you mete the height of that tree?"

Instead of L. transient >> M.Eng. flitten or fleeting

Instead of L. enlarge >> M.Eng. biggen >> Big"gen\, v. t. & i. To make or become big; to enlarge. [Obs. or Dial.]--source: "biggen." Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary. MICRA, Inc. 30 Jul. 2011.

EX. "We need to biggen the film."

Instead of L. nausea and L. delicate >> M.Eng. queasy >

> 1425–75; late Middle English qweysy, quaysy; spelling/speaking of the English word might be influenced by A.N. queisier (Old French coisier)- both are from O.N. kveisa

@Stanmund: "The first I knew such high life was possible was hanging out at a party bursting with blumpen upper classes dripping in bling. I kid thee not, one goer showed up kitted out in the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind..."

What does "blumpen" mean? Why use "thee" instead of "you"? Why "kitted"? There are many, many everyday words you could've chosen. 'Bling"? Okay, in German we have blinken (sparkle, twinkle, gleam), so I can live with that. I don't think hip-hop/rap artists picked it up from German, though.;-p

You also used Latin words: possible, party, & classes. Here is my take:

The first I knew such high-life was within reach was hanging out at a bash teeming with a high-borne crowd buried in bling. I kid you not, one guest showed up wearing the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind...

"That the English language has been enriched by the Latin influx is true, but it has been impoverished by it as well. Due to a Latin bias some English writers borrowed foreign words where home-born English would have done as well, and even better. Moreover, by this borrowing process English has lost the power of making compounds, a power still retained by the Germans in a high degree and which is not only useful but also expressive. Old English formed compounds from independent words quite freely. O. F. Emerson says "the word land was part of at least sixty-three compounds in Old English, while the word even 'evening' was used in twenty-six, and life in twenty-seven compounds, and illustrates the expressiveness of some by such words as life-busy, life-care, lifeday, life-fast 'having life,' life-ward 'guardian of life,' life-way, life-well 'living spring,' life-win 'joy of life,' all of which have not come down to modern times."---pg. 15, Journal of genetic psychology, Volume 12, 1905
edited by Granville Stanley Hall, Carl Allanmore Murchison

English > Latin

soothsaw > proverb

after think > repent

sour dough > leaven

medeful > meritorious

mooned > lunatic

sunstead > solstice

leechcraft > medicine

waterfright > hydrophobia

wanhope > despair

forewit* > prudence

inwit* > conscience

* compare 'nit wit' (not wise, no mind, not thinking), which is still said today.

These are examples of true word swaps. Sad is it not?

Ængelfolc: you have been busy!
Wasn't "wanhope" or something like it used by Gerald Manly Hopkins?? "Hope hath grown grey hairs... (The Wrack of the Deutschland)??
"queasy" is excellent.
ad nauseam >> ad queasiam????
"foresight" for prudence already exists.
moonstruck already exists for lunatic.
"make something bigger" is simpler to use.

BTW which websit do you use for hungarian wordroots? All I get is one asserting links with sumerian.

@jayles:

Sumerian? You must've been reading works by Dr. Alfréd Tóth, right? Dr. Tóth is a big believer in the Sumerian-Hungarian origins rather than a Finno-Ugric one. It seems that this is an idea that is on the Hungarian lunatic-fringe. I have no thoughts about it either way; I try to stay open to new things.

I don't do much with Hungarian roots, so, at this time, I have only the following link to give:

1. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Hungarian_terms_derived_from_other_languages

I'll look around and see what I can dig up. I may be able to put forward a good book or two on the subject.

MfG

@jayles: "ad nauseam >> ad queasiam???? "

How about "toward, at, about, to queasiness"? Latin 'ad-' is a cognate with Germanic 'at'.

Queasy is commonly used in the South.

Instead of wan(n)hope ... Why not just hopeless? Or hopelessness? Maybe even forlorn? ... Or if you want to make it forlorn-hope ... She is in a state of hopelessness/forlornness/fornlorn-hope.

To my surprise, I found a conjugation of biggen: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/biggen.html

And "abrook" ... to brook or endure http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/abrook.html

As for writing, I have been making a willful effort recently to use more "anglish" words and it is hard to do so at times without sounding like you lack an education. I just wrote a seven-page short story and as I was using more "anglish" words, I found myself doing like Stanmund and slipping into thou and thee ... Which I like! I'd rather pick up the anglo-saxon form and use "thu" but that would bewilder/bemuse most folks. I'd like to use thu and ye (singular and plural but not as a "polite" form) and return to using "you" as the objective form. I wrote the whole story that way ... including using thy/thine ... tho I didn't follow the old of using thine instead of thy when the following word began with a vowel.

The more difficult part was whether to use st or est with the stem of the verb! lol I just went with what sounded right. Of course, in the South, we solved the singular/plural forms of you a long time ago ... you is singular and y'all is plural!
(We even retain part of the old form of saying "you two" from anglo-saxon)

Forthright's Forsoothery - http://phrontistery.info/archaic.html

"...it is hard to do so at times without sounding like you lack an education."

This is the kind of thought that must be washed away. The "academics" have done a good job of selling this one to the folks!

"To my surprise, I found a conjugation of biggen" I don't make up words, like so many do, if I don't have to. That's why I also wrote where I got it from. I like the word, for what it's worth.

"Instead of wan(n)hope ... Why not just hopeless?" We would save "wan" (O.E. wann dark, gloomy < PGmc. *wannaz) and bolster "hope". I think it better, since wan(n) does not seem to be found in other Germanic tongues, save for English's nearest kin---> Old Frisian wann "dark".

Ængelfolc: I have never heard the word biggen (although there is a fighter airfield near London called Biggin Hill). It may be in some dictionary, and maybe there are people out there using it, but I would call it uncommon/nonstandard English. I could not use this word in the real world, what about "greaten"?

@jayles:

"I would call it uncommon/nonstandard English" Why...yes it is! That's the thing, we are talking about giving "standard English" a makeover.

Yes, "greaten" (first said c. 1614) is also a true, long forgotten, word that is now thought of as archaic, or "non-standard" English. It means "to make or become great or greater". It is good English--both words are.

"Can I greaten my political standing?"

Why couldn't you say these words? "I'd like to greaten the size of my house." Maybe it would sound odd, but so what? You'd be the talk of the town; a little quirky and offbeat! LOL

"Biggin" in "Biggin Hill" may be from the Scottish word meaning "a house, a cottage, a building". The word 'big' here is from Middle English biggen "to inhabit" < Old Norse byggja "to inhabit", akin to Old English bū(i)an "to build", German bauen "to build". This in mainly said in Scotland and North England.

A 'big(g)ing' or a 'biggins' is a 'stead, dwelling, home or a building'. There is a small town called Biggin in North Yorkshire, England. There is also a township called Newbiggin in the parish of Middleton-in-Teesdale, co. Durham; also a township in the parish of Shotley, co. Northumberland. "Newbiggin" >> "new building".

Ængelfolc: Good. I almost put "biggen" instead of "enlarge" (vocabulary) on a student report, but sadly we have to teach the "normal" words first. I don't find "enlarge" too bad; better than "expand" anyway. Norman french words have been around a long time. BTW I was taught at school (after the dinosaurs died out) that "big" and "get" were low class words and to be shunned; just because they are Norse perhaps.
Bug word of the day: "authoritative" - why do we have author AND writer? Why bring in the Greek? Oh no! it just LOOKS greek! really should AUGMENT my vocabulary!
A trustworthy source would be fine.
Nice word of the day: someone said "mother language" and I corrected to "mother tongue" as it is the standard phrase; whereas "tongue" for language usually sounds old-fashioned. Not often we can soundly switch to real English!

@jayles: "BTW I was taught at school (after the dinosaurs died out) that "big" and "get" were low class words and to be shunned; just because they are Norse perhaps."

Wow...'after' the dinosaurs died? LOL! Were you really taught that those Norse words were "low class" and should be forgotten? I guess that highlights and underpins my whole thought about "academia" being the main problem.

"Bug word of the day: "authoritative" - why do we have author AND writer? Why bring in the Greek? Oh no! it just LOOKS greek! really should AUGMENT my vocabulary!
A trustworthy source would be fine."

Your meaning here, for me, is betwixt and between. What do you mean? I know that 'authoratative', 'authority', 'author', and 'augment' are all kin to one another. Are you asking for a trustworthy book to grow you wordstock?

I myself do not like the word 'augment'. It is an unneeded word; It is overmuch. English speakers, instead, can say build up, grow, strengthen, beef up, make greater, "greaten", wax, asf.

What's more, a word akin to AUGMENT (from the same PIE root as the Latin and Greek) already was in Old English before it was taken in to English:

Old English ēaca (ON auki, Danish øge, Icelandic auka, Swedish öka; Gothic aukan; akin to German auch = English eke, eek). It means "to supplement; add to; stretch; to increase; grow; lengthen; enlarge. Why anyone thought English needed AUGMENT is way beyond me!

Sadly, the word only lives in the phrase "eke out" >> "They managed to eke out a living by farming a small piece of land."

Middle English eke, eake, eek "olso, too, in addition, moreover < Old English ēac, ēc = Dutch ook, Old Dutch ōk, Old Saxon ok, Old High German ouh (ouchon), Old Norse auk, Danish og, Swedish och, Gothic auk < PGmc. stem *auk-.

So, say instead, "(I) should indeed EKEN my wordstock!" ;-p

Ængelfolc: "A trustworthy source would be fine." Sorry, just meant we could use "trustworthy" instead of "authoritative" before the noun "source", whereas in another context, say, "She was very authoritative", we couldn't. Context changes meaning!
"Were you really taught that big & get... low class...." Yup, and then came rock n roll!

Sometimes it is easy enough to explain the meanings of latinate words, for instance, "incident"

@jayles >> "There was a happening in your class today", but that IS foreboding, isn't it? I like it, even if the status quo does not. Maybe, "goings-on" for incident would work, too.

I'll have to work on METAPHOR....

Ængelfolc: metaphor

I didn't doubt that there was biggen existed, I was thinking that it was an Anglo-Saxon verb and was wondering how it would conjugate ... but it is a Middle English creation.

There is biggen from Middle English and embiggen from the late 1800s which was brought into play on a Simpson episode and later used in a scientific paper (see below) ... I allllllmost used it to in when I was reviewing a paper written by a Tunisian woman. She needed to add the phrase "venture capital for businesses to expand" I started to put in embiggen. I still might but it's pretty important for her so I'm on the fence about it. If it were my paper, I'd do it!

1996, Dan Greaney, The Simpsons, episode 3F13: “Lisa the Iconoclast”, credits, beneath the statue of Jebediah Springfield: A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

2006 November 22, Riccardo Argurio, Matteo Bertolini, Sebastián Franco, and Shamit Kachru, Gauge/gravity duality and meta-stable dynamical supersymmetry breaking, published 2007 January 23, pages 24{1} and 26{2}:
{1} For large P, the three-form fluxes are dilute, and the gradient of the Myers potential encouraging an anti-D3 to embiggen is very mild.
{2} While in both cases for P anti-D3-branes the probe approximation is clearly not good, in the set up of this paper we could argue that there is a competing effect which can overcome the desire of the anti-D3s to embiggen, namely their attraction towards the wrapped D5s.

2010, September 21, If a future turn of events in Africa was seen as requiring the island’s military role to be embiggened and its facilities rendered much more secure http://www.economist.com/node/17082686

---

On another note, I was thinking of using safeguard for protective as in "safeguarding walls" for "protective walls" but "safe" is from Latin!

Maybe "forfending walls"? That might work.

Here is the paragraph:

Jared wasn’t the only one who lived outside of the protective (forfending) walls but those who did were often viewed with mistrust of not wanting to be part of the Gathering. Blatant individualism could lead to one being shunned until one repented.

I replaced suspicion with mistrust.
individualism?
repented? Maybe rue? "... until one showed rue" ... That just doesn't flow.

BTW - I created an Anglish page on Facebook ... So if you have FB, you can "like" it and start a thread there. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Anglish/242781915742432

@jayles: I can see what you mean! Greek μεταφορά (metaphorá) means "a transfer" < metaphérein "to transfer".

META means "beyond, after, among, behind, higher, over" or "change or alteration of something". Greek μετά is akin to O.E. mid "with, together with, into the presence of, through, by means of, by, among, in, at (time), in the sight of, opinion of”", ON/Icelandic með, and the other like Germanic words. Both are allegedly from PIE *medʰi- "with".

-PHOR(E) means "bearer of...", "thing or part doing the bearing", "carrier" < phérein "to bear"

metaphor < lit. "to carryover from one word to another"; The comparison of one thing to another without the use of like or as.

Icelandic says myndhvörf/myndhverfing/myndlíki(ing) "image, picture turning/ likness".

Wait...we have a good English word for "metaphor": KENNING.

Thanks, AnWulf, for showing that "(em)biggen" is right and true....even today!

"Jared wasn’t the only one who lived outside of the (bulwarked) walls but those who did were often (looked upon) with mistrust of not wanting to be part of the Gathering. (Brazen) (selfhood) could lead to one being shunned until one (made amends)."

1. Blatant > Brazen, Bald, Bold, Garish,

2. Individualism > Selfhood (1. The state of having a distinct identity; individuality. 2. The fully developed self; an achieved personality.) See, English doesn't need this word either!

3. Repent > make amends, square up, withdraw (withdrew > take back, unsay), forswear, asf.

There were only about 500 words of Latin-French origin in English before 1250 AD, about 1000 before 1400 AD. Maybe that is the cut-off?

Those with the will should scour (from Old Norse skūr) the wordstock for all Latin-French words that came in after 1400, and find an English or Germanic word to put in its stead.

Thoughts?

It's hard to know which Latin words came into Anglo-Saxon before 1066 (Battle of Hastings) unless the history of the word is dated. The wordbook on my computer doesn't usually give the dates. It just states the source. I'v found myself lately looking thru a number of sources ... I now have an online etymological site and two Old English sites that I use along with the computer wordbook/thesaurus. Even then, I often miss words like selfhood.

Bulwark might work tho, to me, it has a navy feel to it. I think I'v usually seen associated with ships.

Make amends ... amends ... Old French amendes ‘penalties, fine,’ plural of amende ‘reparation,’ from amender.

I had considered forswear but that means more to give something up ... I would hav to write: ... until one forswore his selfhood. It doesn't quite have the impact of ... until one repented.

But I like selfhood. In another story, I'v been using selfstanding for independent. I don't know if it is because I'm used it, but it fits pretty well. Now I'm just looking for an opportunity to use (em)biggen! lol

"we have a good English word for "metaphor": KENNING." well not quite. Take "slam"; literally "slam the door"; but also used (esp in news headlines) to mean condemn eg "Govt report slams new training scheme for police". Hell maybe I am using metaphor wrongly anyway.??
1400 might be a good cut off date but I cannot go looking up dates to decide whether a word is okay or not. I suggest a) avoid (!) words directly imported (!) from latin (ie renaissance and after) b) admit (!) norman french words which have become embedded in English eg "use"; "point out"; and so on. Would be easier to guess. Eliminate (!) the words ending in "ate" "ation" ?? asf

@Jayles ... I agree. That's is more or less my method. It it is short ... one or two syllables ... then I'm usually good with it. Once the words start getting longer, I start looking for other words. I'm finding it a lot of fun to look for different words and learning quite a bit along the way!

In the story I'm writing, I've decided that the "bad guys" will use lean towards using the Latin based words ... while the pro-freedom (almost wrote pro-liberty) side will lean towards the Anglo-Saxon based words. Thus the oppressors will commune regularly, denounce individualism, and demand repentance. While the freedom lovers will gather together and mark their selfhood.

Two words for today: Honor (verb and noun) and color (hue?) ... These may be two keepers. The words that I come up with just don't fit the use.

Anglo-Saxon has a verb weorthian ... to make worthy / to honor ... I haven't found a modern verb form for it.

AnWulf: IMHO in general, good storytelling (and poetry) uses as many real English words and phrases as possible. The short Saxon words are more punchy and feeling-based. There is no harm in having a few leitmotif latinate phrases for the oppressors, but long sections of latinate language become boring - okay for business and academics but not what you want to read on the beach. On the other hand I found hobbit-speak and elven-tung annoying and unreadable so one can go too far outside the mainstream.

"The American influence is far too prevalent and not necessarily benign"
prevalent >> widespread
sway doesn't seem to work for influence.
necessarily>> ??
benign >> ???

Oops! I meant pervasive>> widespread

I think Chaucer is for the most part okay; but the KIng James bible uses phrases like "evil concupiscence" (whatever that is) in places so it depends on what part you are looking at. The point being that Chaucer is generally quite intelligible to the modern ear.

@AnWulf: "Anglo-Saxon has a verb weorthian ... to make worthy / to honor ... I haven't found a modern verb form for it."

O.E. weorþian or weorðian "to honor, to endow,adorn" < O.E. weorþ "worth, deserving, esteemed, honored, price, value, dignity" < PGmc. *werþaz (cf. Old Saxon werþ, Old Norse verðr, German Wert, Gothic wairþus, wairþ "price") = English 'worth'.

Instead of COLOR:

HUE, "a color; a shade of a color; tint; blee" < Old English hīw, akin to Old Norse hȳ < PGmc.*hiwjan

EX1. "...the rosy hue of hindsight..."
EX2. "...all the hues of the rainbow..."

BLEE (Archaic), "color; hue; likeness; complexion; shape" < O.E. blēo(h) < PGmc. *blījan, *blīwan. From the same root as English blithe (O.E. blīþe "joyous, bliss, happy").

@AnWulf: "Make amends ... amends ... Old French amendes ‘penalties, fine,’ plural of amende ‘reparation,’ from amender."

D-oh! Sorry...I don't know why I wrote "make amends"---!!

Bulwark is not for ships alone. It is said for any kind of wall built for defense. One can also use it to say "Religion was his bulwark." for any person or thing giving strong support or encouragement =, esp. in times of doubt, danger.

Forswear also means "renounce".

"Brazen selfhood could lead to one being shunned until one crawled back on their guts and begged for forgiveness."

"American overbearingness/sway/might/clout/World standing (standing in the World)/pull is far too widespread/rife/broad/far-reaching/ over reaching and not unmistakably/seemingly/truly/straightforwardly by all means good/friendly/kind/mild/"

You'll have to pick one of each, jayles! (if you think they are good and will work well)

@jayles: "admit (!) norman french words which have become embedded in English eg "use"; "point out"; and so on."

I can see your "point". Good show!

Instead of...L.proverb >> English byword "saying, proverb, catchword, saw, epithet, an object of scorn" (which is L.proverb using English word bits) < Old English bīwyrde (Old High German pīwurti)

@jayles: "admit (!) norman french words which have become embedded in English eg "use"; "point out"; and so on."

I would also like to bring back the English word, and have it along side the Anglo-Norman one.

@Jayles ... The story that I'm writing arose from a chat and a swap of emails. I started it as a lark and saw an opportunity to explore Anglish. I quickly wrote out seven pages and I've been going over them looking for Latinate words and trying to put in Anglo-Saxon based words ... It has been an undertaking!

Even the Anglo-Saxons chose words from other tongues prior to the Norman invasion. So I don't have a problem with using words that fit a nook. But prior to the Normans, AS had a rich vocabulary ... as I'm finding out when I seek other words and there really wasn't a great need for all the Latin/French based words ... a few perhaps but not to the extent that we have them. The AS even had lawyers! ... So you know that they had a lot of words! lol

You're right in that AS words have more feeling to them and that is probably because so many of the Latinate words are used in academics. But I'm constantly surprised at some of the more basic sounding words that turn out to be Latinates ... like task. Task sounds pretty Anglish ... but it's not. It's a corruption of the Latinate tax. Maybe it's ok since we corrupted it! lol

For example, I went looking for an AS word for opportunity. The best AS word that I found was byre ... which can mean anything from a shed to a strong wind to an opportunity. Interestingly, the dative case is byrum ... like the name Byrum. So I looked up the meaning of the name; it was listed as OE for "at the barn" and a couple of other wild ones. HUH? I know that AS/OE for barn is bern so I knew that the name meaning was off. But it showed up on two different sites. meh

You do know that Tolkien was an OE professor! Right? So the hobbit-speak in the Rings series is based on AS/OE words. Heck, there are even passages that are almost right out "Beowulf". So the task for me to find a decent blend that doesn't make people think that it's hobbit-speak! As I said, I started it began as a lark but I think that I can actually put some legs to it and make it longer. Either way, it's fun to write it while using the AS based words (for the good guys anyway!).

As for elf-tongue, one of the AS words for beautiful is ælfscyne (elfshine). I'd love to work that one in! The other one that is often used for beautiful is fæger from which we get "fair" ... Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?

@Ængelfolc ... For admit/confess the AS word verb is andettan ... bring it forward and make it “to andett” ... So, I andett, you andett, he andetts. Then we could take Edward the Confessor BACK to Edward the Andetter. Actually, it was Andettere but we don't need the extra e. It sounds a little strange at first but it probably wouldn't take long to get used to it.

Today's challenges/tasks for playing instead of Latin ... the word challenge itself and the word language in the sense of "body language" ... I don't think that "body tongue" fits here. Here is the sentence:

From the body language and nods, it betokened that Jared had agreed to perform the Ritual.