“Anglish”

Oops, that's "lose the net".

In OE, focus was fustra ... btw, it's "home in" not "hone in", one can hone his skills but he homes in on a target. (Hone in was a mistake made about 50 years ago and it's still here).

For suggestion, the word is foreset: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/foreset

Yes, I kno about onefold, I just like anfald: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anfald better.

I've been thinking about Anglish for a long time, and I've begun to blog here http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/. I hope you will at least come and have a look, and I'm sorry if it does not belong here.

"But theft serveth of wicked note
Hyt hangeth hys master by the throte" MS Hari 1701 f14

I wonder whether we could use "benoter" for "consumer"; and "end-benoter" for "end-user"???
Nice to see this word in wiktionary. I found "A Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words, Volume 2, Halliwell, 1860." quite an eyeoopener in terms of the breadth of old wordstock.

Always use Þ instead of ð to write Ænglisc, I now say. Eth (Ð, ð) was born owing to Latin-writing Irish monks needs a mark to mean thorn (Þ, þ), I think. That is why eth is in Icelandic and Faroese, as well as, Old English.

As for "hone in", I know "home in" is right. The 'm' and 'n' are right next to each other on my keyboard.

So, no one seems to talk about how "hone in" came about. It is an American-English eggcorn. It is from a book called Paper Lion by George Plimpton (1965), "...looking back for the ball honing in to intercept his line of sight...”

Home in < pilot talk: "home on the beacon", meaning guided back to base by a radio beacon < from what homing pigeons do.

It seems "hone in" will likely stay in English, sad to say. It seems to be said much more often than "home in", its rightness notwithstanding.

Hone is a true OE word, originally meaning a whetstone - one hones a blade, as one hones skill. I find the US English explanation a bit misleading.

"I find the US English explanation a bit misleading."

How so? There is no strife (< Frankish *strid) over HONE being Old English

So do we keep "change" "exchange" in our "English" wordstock because of its Celtic origins???

Probably the closest thing you'll get to how ME would've sounded if the conquest hadn't happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBuT_b5Uc8

Why not bring Scottish 'wissel' into English?

Scottish WISSEL/WISTEL "to change, change money" < akin to Mid.Dutch/Dutch wissel; Old Franconian: wihsil; OHG/O.Sax. wehsal; MLG wessele, wissele f., wissel; ON vīxl < P.Gmc. *wīxsl(i)a-z, -n, *wixsla-z, -n. See also WISSLER "money changer".

I yeasay that one!

Wissel sounds like its long overdue its place in modern English. And if Broad Scots has it then it most definitely is true English.

"Change" might be Celtic at root, but the real issue should be how a word entered English. If it came straight from Celtic, that's fine, as it was borrowed without duress. But as it came by way of French, we have to ask whether it would have otherwise been borrowed. That's the way I see it: http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/1-on-good-grounds/

I would say that many of the meanings of "change" can be covered with "shift" or "switch", without bringing in a new word. We should avoid a new word here if we can, for there are other places where we cannot avoid it.

@ Thorn,

Yeah, switch and shift could be used more, but in relation to 'swap' or 'exchange' then I see no problem with wissel/wistel - though I would back the double-S spelling first to avoid ambiguity with its tuneful neighbour.

Wachter says L. cambio (the root of 'change') is likely from the Germanic (Frankish) c(h)am (said *kham) < chan < khan "the hand" < P.Gmc.*khanduz, meaning "to alter, trade, barter, transform, exchange, asf. He said it means, " de rnanu in manum trado." The word "change" is said to be first known from the Frankish 'Lex Salica', and therefore, it is not unthinkable that the root could be from Frankish.

Many word-lorists today think 'change' came about thusly: Celtic *kmb-i-ati- > Celtic *kmb-io > Celtic kamb-io- > Gallo-Latin cambiō > cambīre > cambiare 'exchange' (see L. cambium) > Old French changier (where L. c = Fr. ch; L.b = Fr. soft-g;m/n are nasal, switch back and forth) > Anglo-Fr. chaunger > ME chaunge(n) > E. change.

Something worth looking into.

For me, the problem with "wissel" is that's it's not a widely known word. It might be Scots, but that's still beyond the knowledge of many English speakers. We would be putting upon people to ask them to learn a new word when one isn't needed. If we can avoid that we should, as folk have a limited amount of patience.

@Thorn,

People won't bide that which is unfashionable. Make something trendy, then they will grace any idea with childlike obsession. Balls, to the idea that folk won't take on new words, they do it daily in work, the pub, social networks. Anyway that's why we're chatting, about the reintroduction and edquickening of those words which have been wrongly rendered redundant. A clever ploy, applied in just the right way could have Beckham speaking like Beowulf in an eyeblink. That simple.

Well, we disagree, but that's okay. Indeed, not only is it okay, but diversity is good. Lots of different approaches will give us more to work with and choose from. Can I ask if you have a website for your work?

Word-of-the-Day to be thrown out of English > INCOGITANT

What a true ink-horn word!!! THOUGHTLESS is all an English speaker needs!!

Any stand-in for "tenant"??
"Holder" of course, but somewhat befuddling when talking of "landlord and holder". I am looking for something more pointed, like "fiefholder" or something.

@jayles:

tenent < lodger, roomer; maybe 'boarder'.

Yes thanks. However, lodger/boarder refers to someone who rents a room in your own house, sharing kitchen /bathroom and so on. "Tenant" is someone who rents a separate flat or dwelling. What happened to "Mieter" and "Paechlter"? "Renter" is of course from french I think. So for instance "I am having a spot of bother wiith one of the tenants" is clear: but putting in "one of the holders" loses the meaning.

Well, I guess you could always go Anglo-French > leaseholder. What about flat-holder or dwelling-holder?

German Miete(r) < OHG miata, mēta < P.Gmc. *mēzdō, *mizdō "reward, payment, bribe, hire" >>> P.Gmc.*mēdō > Old English mēd, meord, meard, meorþ "reward, payment" > M.E. meede, mede > English (hoary, bygone, olden) meed. Akin to Gothic mizdō.

You could quicken 'meeder'/'meeter', right? Maybe 'meed-holder'?

Yes, 'rent(er)' is Latin-French. So is 'tenant'. "Paechlter" is 'der Pächter' from die Pacht "lease,rent", which is from L. pactum; akin to E. pact. So, its no good anyway.

@jayles: I've got it!!

LET (before 900; Middle English leten, Old English lǣtan)

Well, here is what GOOGLE gave me:Terms & conditions of lets - Dundee College from

"1.11 The let holder must ensure they have an appropriate level of public liability ... Use of Dundee College premises for lets to let holders shall be granted at the ..."

And from the Glasgow Government website: "IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE LET HOLDER TO SIGN THE JANITOR'S ... Let holders are responsible for ensuring personal possessions are adequately ..."

It seems there is yet hope! Let-holder is good and being noted/brooked (used) for lawful writs/writings!

@jayles: As you likely know....

"Buy-to-let is a British phrase referring to the purchase of a property specifically to let out." -- "let out" (rent) from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_to_let

I agree that "letholder", or something based on "let" is likely the best word.

Look how near Frisian and today's English are, even with all of the Latinates and Greek words it doesn't need:

English Frisian
as as
cheese tsiis
cow kou
day dei
ear ear
head haed
hear hear
thought tocht
through troch

Maybe Frisian is how weed be speaking English, if 1066 went the other way!

This got me thinking today > "About 80 percent of Germanic word roots are of non-Indo-European origin."

If 20% of Germanic roots are from PIE or IE, where does the other 80% come from?

Ængelfolc, I think that statistic is a little old. There once was some theory about a language from which Germanic borrowed lots of words early in its history, but it's now thought not to be true. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis

Wow yes "let-holder" magic thank you.
Many German place names and rivers are pre-germanic, just the same as in England, Wales and Scotland. Despite this, the uptake of pre-germanic words into English was quite small, and we are left with mysterious words like ,er, "dog". Likewise something like half the words in Hungarian are of mysterious roots. I guess each tribal group more or less had its own tongue with dialect words, much like England a thousand years ago, so we should not be taken aback if the roots are not written down somewhere.

Pop culture: Now there is an economic market or husbandry-field within which much success could be had in influencing language and wordstock. Pop music is the song of the ally/ almean/ common man and that is really how many of our most simplistic germanic language is elegantly and melodically preserved. The tonguely withholding of gleedream, if you will.

"English was quite small, and we are left with mysterious words like ,er, "dog"." Well, one thought about where 'dog' comes from is this:

DOG < Old English docga “strong hound breed” (it had a marked, keenly drawn, meaning, not unlike 'hound' in English today), a pet-shape of Old English -docce (“muscle”) (see fingerdocce (“finger-muscle”) with ending -ga (see frocga (“frog”), picga (“pig”)), from Proto-Germanic *dukkōn 'power, strength, muscle'. See Platt dogge "a big dog"; Dutch dog "a bull-dog"; German Deutsche/Dänische Dogge "Great Dane", die Dogge "mastiff"; Danish dogge, Swedish dogg, a mastiff.

@ þ:

I don't see where the WIKI says it is not true. There are a lot of "if's, and's, & but's"; nothing that is hard truth. The WIKI does seem to say that this thought is indeed not within the mainstream, and many mainstream thinkers about this do not acknowledge the seeming truth of it.

I am going to look about the web and see what I can find. Thanks though.

Gallitro: if you had the time, I'm sure you could show that many of the most liked songs in English are those with few FLaG words.

As far as I'm aware, this song has not one none Germanic word in its lyrics... that's fair seldom!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8smO4VS9134

Oldest written Germanic likely seems to be from about 300 BC. It is found on the Negau-B helmet, and is written with runestaves of some kind (maybe Etruscan/ North-Italic). It reads:

Harigasti teiwai < either "...to the god Harogast (Odin), or "Harigast (Odin) and Teiwaz (Tyr)". Also, maybe, "made by Harigast".

How cool is that! This is many, many years earlier than Wulfilas' Codex Argenteus; about 650 years, or so, earlier!

Aegelfolc: I do remember reading Frisian poetry at skool and thinking how easy it was compared to real German, closer than modern Dutch. A great shame it was not taken up in Bayern. Not sure which is Dutch and which Frisian on this site:
http://www.tseadbruinja.nl/

@Jayles: "A great shame it was not taken up in Bayern."

Why? Kun je Nederlands spreken? Mijn Nederlandse taal is een beetje roestig.

Nederlands, wat voor een heel erg leuke taal. Ik zou 't heel geweldig vinden, als elk kind de taal kan leren. Misschien niet alleen 'kunnen' toch even ' moeten' !

Lots of Dutch words in English, even Dutch words that came to English through French. I think it good for born English speakers to also learn Dutch, or any of the kin Germanic tongues.

@Aegelfolc,

That would make good onget. For any onefoldly Thetch tongue (Dutch, Swedish) would be like an unlocking key for the other more heavy-going ones (German, Icelandic).

I think teaching born English speakers is one of the keys to keeping and further the "Teutonicness" of the English tongue. I always found it rather odd that the "hallowed Halls of Learning" pushed the learning of Romance tongues (French, Spanish) and Latin.

Now, it's Asian tongues. All of this is said with the understanding that learning these tongues can be good for business and politics; that is not lost on me.

I meant, "I think teaching born English speakers [Teutonic tongues] is one of the keys..."

I see no problem re-strengthening and re-backing our tongue with closer attention being paid to our Teutonic cousins. Unfortunately, Teutonic is considered somewhat of a dirty word since the whole Nazi lunacy. But scholars and the media are quick to forget, our other teutonic cousins suffered under the hands of the Germans, countries whose economies and cultures were totally innocent of the goings-on of '33 - '45. Yet somehow, their teutonicness gets overlook and supressed by their accidental Germanic heritage. Britain gets a hell of a lot of direct and indirect business via Holland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark Belgium, Luxembourg... would it be so painful to give them some respect and bring them closer to our linguistic home?

"Teutonic is considered somewhat of a dirty..."

I think this may be a whyfor England has a bunch of "scholars" that are latter-day Celtic flag waivers; they seem to addle, and greatly downplay, England's Teutonicness at every bend. This might also be grounds for why there has been a lot of borrowing from French and Latin after 1500, markedly so in the now.

Sprache ist der Träger der Kultur!

Here's a good one that should be ground for a fight between Anglo-root folks and Latin-root folks ... OE mindom = smallness from min (small) + -dom. NE mindom = minimum domain. So if one notes OE mindom for minimum (which I did here: http://allpoetry.com/story/9466679-The_Reluctants__SciFi__-_Prolog-by-AnWulf) who gets the credit for the word ... OE or Latin?

@AnWulf:

OE mindom can be taken as a true Ænglisc (Germanic) word. The Latin folks might say that it is a blended word (L-Eng), but I can show it is not.

OE minn "small, slight, low", min "slight", mins, minsian "to diminish" < P.Gmc. *min-, *minns, *minnista-, *minniz (adj. minniz-a, gen. minniz-ins) "less, small, young"; akin to ON minni "small(er)"; Gothic minniza "younger", mins, minznan "to be come less, diminish"; Old Saxon minsōn “to make less, make smaller”; German minder "less, lower", mindest "minimum, least; Eng. mince (< Frankish *minsto, *minnisto < *min, *minn “small, less”) > L. minor, minute, minus, minutia, minimum, minister. Also shared with Celtic *min- "reduce, diminish"; Russian маленький "small"; Polish mniej "less", mniejszy "smaller", among others.

We all know (-)dōm "judgement, state, condition, authority, jurisdiction" < P.Gmc.*dōmaz, whence Latin borrowed it for words like statutum (-tum = dōm).

OE mindom is a true Teutonic word.

Ængelfolc: I think the gainst-German feeling in the UK just stems from snobbery and scholarliness. In grammar schools French and Latin were a must, German just an add-on, Greek too, although I only learnt a smattering of Koine. German was disliked for a while after WWII which is understandable - I remember working for a firm in the sixties which had a 'don't buy German' guideline (and no bacon sandwiches either!). This has long gone but the snobbery lives on.

Ængelfolc: Oh and I forgot to remark on childrens' comic papers in the UK. They often re-use stuff that was written just after WWII and show German troops as heartless thugs, and of course British troops as heroes; but in the end I think they are answerable for a lot of (type-) ilk-casting and fore-deeming in the minds of thoughtless teenagers and grown-ups.
What happened to "Held"?

I know that min is a great Anglo-word but it has been overshadowed and swallowed up by the Latin min+ words. I tripped over minwhile (also mint-while) in ME meaning a moment/instant ... sure enuff, the etym is given as likely min from Latin minute. Min from AS makes more wit as a "small or slight" while rather than as a "minute" while. Then I found mindom (also MinDom) meaning minimum domain. Anyway, I'm calling both minwhile and mindom out for Anglish noting!

What should be taught in schools is OE ... say about the 7th or 8th grades (12 -13 yo kids) for a year ... maybe another year of ME ... and then let them go on to a tung of their choice. Turn these kids loose with a bunch of OE words and sooner or later yu'll find them being noted again!

Cool web-writ that fits in well here, I think.

http://wishydig.blogspot.com/2006/09/old-english-redux.html

Why Norwegian is the easiest language for English speakers to learn

http://www.pagef30.com/2008/08/why-norwegian-is-easiest-language-for.html

@jayles: "What happened to "Held"?"

Why do you ask? ;-)

HELD < MHG helt < OHG Helid > O.E. hæleþ(as), hæle (also hæl, hælþs, hælða) "man, warrior, hero"; See O. Sax. helið

There is no word in latter-day English that I know of that goes back to O.E. hæleþ. This word was mainly a poetic word (used a lot as a play on words), and was almost always one of two or more words of a word group with the same letter, that was said over and over again so as to make a steady beat. In poetry, it was sometimes meant to mean "Christian Warrior".

About 'Held', I'm presuming we'd be looking for a modern word along the lines of ' Heleth' or 'Halth' , maybe it clinked too much like the word 'health' and led to Middle English befuddling. I'm sure other words died a death when English went into 300yrs of freefall following the Norman Overthrowing.

re Held: Why do you ask? ;-)
I was just looking for a stand-in for 'hero'; but it seems this word has sundry with-meanings, both 'warrior', and 'superstar', and the main person in a story, someone whom we should look up to. Perhaps we could just coin a word like, er.., 'warrior-god' ??

perhaps "lodestar" for hero ???
Icelandic has three words depending on context - garpur, hetja,kappi ; wherever they come from.

"perhaps "lodestar" for hero ??? "

Well, 'lode' (< O.E. lād "way, course, carrying") is akin to leiten, Leiter (OHG leita) in today's German. Lodestar "guiding star" might do well for 'leader' or something similar.

Hetja is the main word for 'hero' in Islandic, I think.

'Garpur' < Old Norse garpr "a warlike man"; Norwegian > garp (ON garpr) being a common term of abuse for the Hanseatic merchants, meaning 'tough guy' or 'big mouth'; akin to English CARP "complain or find fault unreasonably", "a peevish complaint" < ME carpen to "speak, prate" < ON karpa "to brag" < ON Garpr

OH Ængelfolc you are my LODESTAR !!!!
or "the lodestar of Pasternak's Zhivago was for me not the doctor but Lara herself"
or "General Westmorland , a Vietnam war lodestar, ..."
???

@jayles:

LOL!

Sikerly, the O.E. lād "way, course, carrying" is, as far as Im aware, the word 'lead' as in leader ? Is the word 'lode' even needed? I reckon leadstar, or leadster ( to differentiate from leader) would afastly(certainly) suffice. Personally I think the word 'a/the beheld' would be a word with a nice nod to the Germanic 'Held' , but more fittingly maintain the idea of a role model or someone admired.

The upside of "lodestar" is that it is at least in today's wordbooks, which for me is an weighty lodestar (guiding principle). Of course,I would lief use something akin to 'Held' but 'a beheld' might well not be understood by today's readers, whereas 'lode' does have a set and somewhat befitting meaning, above all when talking about books and films.
But Gallitrot you are forsooth no rhinestone-warrior when it comes to English!

''But Gallitrot you are forsooth no rhinestone-warrior when it comes to English!'' Not sure what you mean by this...

...But hell, if 'lodestar' is there in the dictionary and of recorded provenance (kithely frume), then I'm all for it.

Beheld might indeed be misunderstood as a noun on occasion, but I'm fairly sure from an audio point of view that if '' a lode was shot ' in a film then there would be a lot of ambiguity and a few shocked faces following such a revelation ;P

Sorry by 'rhinestone' I meant 'imitation' ; I shall have to find another word....

That reminds me of the Old English word for faker, or imitator: an 'evenliker' would have been the modern equivalent. what a beautifully simple and anfaldy word. God knows how that didn't make it into modern English.

LEAD < M.E. leden < from O.E. lǣdan < from P.Gmc. *laidijanan "to go, lead" < P.Gmc. *līþanan "to go, to pass"

LODE < O.E. lād "way, course, journey, road" < P.Gmc. *laidō; akin to LOAD

It seems that later (maybe from mining and/or compasses ) another meaning came about : the guiding light. I have used "lodestar" instead of "criterion" and "principle" (in the right background). It does sound a little odd as a more-than-one word, though. For instance: "we use three lodestars (criteria, principles) to settle on the outcome". "guidelines" is also useful.
I have used "more-than-one word" to mean "plural" but it is a bit of a mouthful. Anglish wordbook puts forward "manifold" but that really means various or diverse, or the inlet manifold on a car engine. Calquing from German would give us "more-toll".
However "onefold" for singular seems to fit.

The thing, we likely overlook too often is that Norman French stopped variant forms of a verb/ word becoming dominant for manifold meanings in English. So as in German where you take the base verb 'setzen' and then by simply adding prefixes you alter the meaning, cf. 'besetzen' 'zusetzen' 'aufsetzen' 'ersetzen' 'einsetzen' 'umsetzen' etc... This basic principle has cost us multitudinous words that would have been so basic in sound that to our overly sesquipedalian/ bigwordwielding modern ears we would laugh them off for their childish sound.

It's out of this premise that I used the word ' beheld' as a noun, for as odd as the article before it sounds the concept is fairly light to follow.

''The man was mighty in shape, steadfastly built, with arms that could stop a speeding farewain (vehicle) in a swipe. No wonder the folk saw him as a beheld, a lodestar in the night - one who could fight and smite for them ''

As Ive said before, I truly believe small passages of text and careful controlling of words in context are the way forward. The academia (thanks Aengelfolc/ Anwulf) is essential in arriving us at an agreed wordhoard which we can use with confidence. But written experimentation is really the only way to solidify this.

Hæleþ made to ME as both heleth and hathel ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hathel ) tho the meaning of "hero" doesn't seem to be there with either.

There are many words or meanings of words that were lost. Tight was befuddled with thight and we lost the noun tight and some of the meanings of tighten:

(a) To entice or incite (sb. to sin, ruin, etc.); incite (sb. that he should do sth.); urge (sb. to do sth.), persuade; also, attract (sb. to oneself); (b) to instruct (sb.), train; discipline (sb.), guide, direct; also, instruct (that sth. should be the case)

(a) To go, come, move; move (toward sb. or sth.); advance (into a country); come (near the ground), descend; also, depart (from a place); ~ tosamen, clash on a battlefield; (b) refl. to make one's way, move, go; (c) fig. to draw close spiritually (to a god), give allegiance; (d) ben tight, to go; come (near to sb.); fig. approach (a set time); (e) impers. hit tight (to) the time, the time approached.

Thanks : "heleth" can be found in wiktionary so I think it can be used.
I just bought another farewain : this time it is truly germanic - a "Folkswain" (FauVee)

I had one of those head-slapping moments the other day. I came across the word "sar" in a ME text that I was reading and anon acknew (recognized) it as the cognate for the German "sehr" (very).

Well, long story short is that I went umbe (a few times) not taking the eathseen (obvious) path. After about an hour of digging, I did the eath thing and found the answer. ME "sar" came from OE "sār" (sore) which is today's "sore".

adverb
archaic
extremely; severely: they were sore afraid http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sore

It may be archaic to them but it's another Southernism that pedantic teachers hav been trying to stomp out since I was kid. So there ya go ... another word for "very".

@Anwulf,

I think a pat on the back and a wee tipple are called for for such sterling work.

@AnWulf:

See my earlier writ on hæleþ:

hæleþ, heleþ, es; m. A man, warrior, hero [a word occurring only in poetry, but there frequently] :-- Gleáwferhþ hæleþ the man wise of mind, Cd. 57; Th. 70, 12; Gen. 1152 : 59; Th. 72, 6; Gen. 1182, 94; Th. 122, 13; Gen. 2026 : Beo. Th. 383; B. 190 : 668; B. 331. Hæleþas heardmóde warriors stern-minded, Cd. 15; Th. 19, 2; Gen. 285. Hæleþ hátene wǽron Sem and Cham Iafeþ þridde the heroes were named Shem and Ham, the third Japhet, Cd. 75; Th. 93, 22; Gen. 1550. Hæleþa scyppend creator of men, Exon. 11 b; Th. 17, 7; Cri. 266 : Cd. 98; Th. 129, 6; Gen. 2139 : Andr. Kmbl. 41; An. 21. Hæleþa bearn the children of men, Cd. 35; Th. 46, 30; Gen. 752. Heleþa sceppend creator of men, Hy. Grn. 8, 34. [Laym. hæleþ, heleþ : O. Sax. helið : O. H. Ger. helid (appears first in 12th cent. v. Graft. iv. 544) : Ger. held.] SOURCE: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/asd/dict-H.html

Right Angelfolk and A Wolf, before this turns into a heroic pissing competition over who can cite the most wayward looking English sources... :P

I want to ask if you can give us a word instead of 'manufacture'... Why? Because I hate it.

Wayward looking?? ;-0

MANUFACTURE < L. manufact ( L. manu(s) "hand" + factura "a working" < "something made by hand" >> hand-worked, hand-made

One could choose from words like building, making, tooling and so forth. Were you seeking only one word to put in the stead of the Latin?

LOL ... No one laught the mistake in my last post. It should read: long story short is that I went umbe (around) a few times.

Let's not forget heoloðhelm m. (heleth-helm) — helmet which makes the wearer invisible.

@Gallitrot ... no pissing contest with Ængelfolc ... I sometimes ask him for etym info and he often puts forth good words.

As for "manufacture": make, build, put together, turn out; shape or ashape(n) ... maybe bemake or amake ... beswink (make with toil) ... to wright or wrighten.

Oddly enuff, manufacture means "to make by hand".

I like WRIGHT "a person who creates, builds, or repairs something specified" < wryhta ("r" and "y" stead-shifted) < wyrhta worker < from W.Ger. *wurhtjo (see OHG wurhto, O.Fris. wrichta) < P.Gmc. *wurkijanan.

We already have Wainwright (O.E. wægn-wyrhta, "wagon-maker/builder"), which could be said for 'car manufacturer'; Wain < O.E. wægn "wheeled vehicle; wagon."

Thoughts, anyone?

We also have "cart-wright" and "shipwright", and "wheel-wright". However "manufacturer" oft betokens a "fellowship" (company?), whereas "wright" oft means the (wo)man themself. One might seldom use the more-than-one ending: Rolls-Royce, wainwrights to Her Highness the Queen. Or : Rolls-Royce are farewain-makers.Fraught is it not?

Wright..."Fraught is it not?"

No. Indeed "manufacturer" (one that manufactures) today means a 'company', but is really means "hand-work; made by hand". Wright can have the same meaning, if English speakers wanted it to.

"Manufacturer," meaning "one who employs workers in manufacturing," is from about 1752. The word itself came into English in the late 1560's, and wasn't thought of a s a verb until the end of the 1600's. 'Wright," and its many other shapes, has always been in the English tongue that we know of: That gives it the right of way.

I'd rather say, "Rolls-Royce, car-maker to Her Highness the Queen," and give a nod to Celtic.

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the old route of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want to be long word ... bewrighten.

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the olden way of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want it to be a long word ... bewrighten.

BTW, wrighten did stand in ME: to construct
upwrighten: to erect

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the olden way of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want it to be a long word ... bewrighten.

BTW, wrighten did stand in ME: to construct
upwrighten: to erect

I must say 'wrighten' clinks good enough to me. Thereto, the added boon that it is different enough homophonically/ likeloudly not to be confused with 'write' or 'right', as I truly think when trying to bring words back into nooting it is of utmost need that they aren't confused with words already in daily speech... otherwise they just sound odd and don't latch on.

BTW, was there a genuine word for 'sound' (as in hearing) in OE, middle English? I'm fairly positive that although 'clang' is given direct Latin roots in the OED that it must've come through Germanic sources first, otherwise I can't see that Dutch and German would have ' klingen ' (past klang) and ' klinken' alike. As the likelihood of them randomly, and liketimely creating similar meaning and sounds is too far fetched and co-incidental. I've chosen 'clink' as the dictionary gives it an uncertain frume(origin) but relates it to a Low German source, meaning that it was probably already in English and was just never really recorded. I know there were other variants such as ' ring ' and ' clam' (OE hlem as in 'clam up') but it's one of those annoyingly regular words where the Frenchy word has inrooted itself utterly.

"Sound" (or at least it's forebear "son") had already been borrowed from Latin in Old English. Even though today's word may owe something to French influence, the borrowing itself doesn't. I don't know how important it is to you to know that it came into the language before 1066, but for me it makes it so much more acceptable. Most of the current suggestions for its replacement are poor, so I'm happy to use it.

Well, Thorn, thanks for the ' Most of the current suggestions for its replacement are poor' . I assure you I only put forward words that have genuinely had some meaning and use in the stead of the word 'sound', for instance 'ring' as in the phrase ' to ring true '... but that all aside... could you give me a text example taken from OE English where the word 'sound/ son' was used? Not being awkward with you, just really quite taken aback that the word precedes 1066... that's good news, I love it when a word can be taken back from the supposed slew the Normans gave us.

Gallitrot, please don't my suggestion that all the replacements for "sound" are poor as knocking you! I've tried them all out myself—including "ring" which I liked the best—and found them all wanting. The wordstock we have to work with seems to be lacking in many high level categories, with many of the words concentrated at the lower levels. That's understandable, but it sucks when we need to find the kind of word that "sound" is. I've just been thinking about "matter", but it's so high level that it's hard to get something really good. The best I can come up with is "thing" as a mass noun. Not awful, but I would like better if I can.

Anyway as for a quotation, my knowledge of the word comes from Bosworth–Toller. The first quote in that is, "Nán neát nyste nǽnne andan tó óþrum for ðære mergþe ðæs sónes . . . Hé wæs oflyst ðæs seldcúþan sónes", which it references as coming from Alfred's Consolation of Philosophy. The meaning is given as "music or musical sound", from which the modern meaning could easily derive. Indeed, one of the earliest citations in Middle English come from Ancrene Riwle, and the "seon" in one manuscript is given as "song" in another, showing that the meanings were still close.

Cheers Thorn, and no ofthank taken... How interesting that the word was in use before 1066, what date is the OE excerpt/cutout from?

I'm not too worried about the lack of high words, as they can happily be newly created by piecing together older words to make a true guess at what things most likely wouldve become.

However, 'sound' is very important and I wish the OED *spits* would have the balls to record that the word was being used before the downfall at Hastings.

þ > Would you kindly give the book or writing that shows 'sound' and its fore-bearer's came into English before 1066?

L. sonus shares the same PIE root as O.E. geswin "music, song," swinsian "to sing;" O.N. svanr, O.E. swan "swan," "the sounding bird"

As for "high words", Latin and/or Greek have no higher words to talk about any one thing than English (new or old). The academia have thrust these words upon English, and therefore stilted English from making these "high words".

As Gallitrot rightly says, high words can be shaped anew with lost Old English words, latter-day English, and borrowings from other Germanic tongues. English should look to Icelandic for this.

"...was there a genuine word for 'sound' (as in hearing) in OE, middle English?"

Yes, and it is still in today's English, although it is not often said.

DIN "a loud noise" < M.E. din(e) (noun), Old English dyne, dynn(an) < P.Gmc. *dunjaz; cognate with Old Norse dynr noise, Old High German tuni.

"In this earsplitting din of pop-music, patrons drank more in less time."

"Invigorated by this jolt of misanthropy, he moved sleekly through the din" - Amsterdam by Ian McEwen

The word can be taken to mean only "sound", too.

There is lude: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lude

As þ said, the Latinate "sound" goes back to OE : sōn m. - sound, music [L. sonus] and sōncræft m. - music.

Hé wæs oflyst ðæs seldcúþan sónes … He was pleased with the selcouth sounds/music.

Which is from PIE *swonos, from root *swen- "to sound" (OE geswin "melody, song", swinsian "to sound melodiously, to sing", swinswēg "melody"; ON svanr and OE swan "swan" or "the sounding bird"). The was likely an OE *swin but there is no record of it. See swēg below. (Not to be befuddled with swīn "swine".)

All I can tell yu is that sōn is in both OE wordbooks that I note. I guess it is mightlic (possible - OE mihtlic) that Latinates came in during the years shortly after the Norman-French Takeover. I'd hav to backtrack some the writs and check the dates given for them ... furthermore ... many are marked as "cYYYY" meaning "circa" or "about" so there are often many years leeway. It may not be right, but the way I do it is that if the word is in the OE wordbook, then it is good to go. Otherwise I'd spend a lot of time chasing down writs where they are found and the dates of the writs.

From OE:
(ge)brec n. - noise, sound [(ge)break]

clipol - sounding, vocal: vocalic (from clipian: to speak, cry out, call; summon, invoke; cry to, implore.) [clepe]

cnyll m.- sound or signal of a bell [knell]

dyne m. - noise, [din]

hlem m. - sound

hlēoþor n. - noise, sound, voice, melody, song: hearing
>gehlēoþor harmonious

hlȳd f. - noise, sound [see lude, loud]

hlynn I. m. sound, noise, din, tumult ... II. f. torrent [linn] (liken Scot linn - waterfall)

hwoþrung f. - murmur, a low sound (from hwoþerian to foam, surge ... from hwiþa - air, breeze)

stefn - I. f. voice, sound [steven] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steven

swēg m. - sound; noise, clamor, tumult: melody, harmony, tone; voice: musical instrument: 'persona'
> swēgcræft m. art of playing on an instrument, music
> swēgdynn m. noise, crash
> swēge sonorous, harmonious
> swēgendlic adj. vocal, vowel
> swēghlēoþor m. sound, melody.
> swēging f. sound, clang, roar
>> sweger f. mother-in-law [Ger. schwieger; Sp. suegra]
as an afterfast
> ānswēge harmonious, accordant
> bencswēg m. bench-rejoicing, sound of revelry
> hāsswēge sounding hoarsely
> hearpswēg m. sound of the harp
> hereswēg m. martial sound
> hildeswēg m. sound of battle
> morgenswēg m. morning cry
> samswēge adj. sounding together, in unison
> swētswēge agreeable (of sound) [sweet-sound]
> swinswēg melody
> samodswēgende consonantal
> selfswēgend m. vowel

Liken: swīge f. silence
> swīgdagas mp. days of silence
> swīgnes f. time of silence
> swīgian to be or become silent, keep silence, be quiet, still

wōþ f. sound, noise: voice, song, poetry: eloquence.
> wōþbora m. orator, speaker, seer, prophet, poet, singer.
> wōþcræft m. art of speech or song.

...

For matter ... I like "intinga" ... (in-thing) ... In two short-tales I'v written, I'v used "birth-intinga" as "genetic material". I'm being a little loose with the meaning of "intinga" but what the heck, it works.

The quote comes from the Consolation of Philosophy, which was translated by Alfred, so would date to the late 800s. I don't happen to have a copy of that work, so I'm reliant on the quote from Bosworth-Toller being correct, however they give some other quotes of the word's use. Also, the Middle English Dictionary also gives "sound" as having roots in Old French and Old English.

By the way, the same seems to be true of "market", which is not surprising given it's appearance in so many other Germanic languages. For me this is good as I don't really care about where a word ultimately comes from, only how it got into the language. It's the FLaG words which came in after 1066 which I'm most worried about.

PS Is everybody here at http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anglish/? That's a much better place to discuss things than this thread.

Many of the things you've posted I agree with...

I think English should attempt to purge itself of unnecessary foreign loanwords, and copy the Icelandic's idea of creating its own Germanic root replacements for business, government, medical and clerical wordhoard.

If 'sound' truly had roots, as a verb, in OE... then so be it. Like I said, it's a shame that the OED won't record this fore-1066-overtaking input of the word into English. But they're Latin/Norman French loving dolts...and that, as they say, is that.

Re The Anglish Moot, it bothers me, as Ive said before. The Anglish Moot self-kithed that it is only there as a group experiment and sees itself as a hobby object alone rather than a realistic movement for English wordawending. That's not my wont. The difficulty of eftlearning my own language notwithstanding, I thinks it worth it for a truer, better English language... one that is less ambiguous and eath to follow back to basic building blocks instead of oppressively introduced.

I bidye to forgive my spelling in the last post, but it's late here... I hope, most of all, it's clear.

Gallitrot: "But they're Latin/Norman French loving dolts" Why should I not love Norman-French? It has a certain 'je ne sais quoi' ! Besides I have blue eyes and was-black hair,
(truly a now-grey-balding Norman-French bastard), and the "English" education system brainwashed me into Lainate snobbery.
The real hurdle as noted above is to come up with abstract wordstock that is understandable today. For instance: 'abstract': Hungarian has calque from Latin -> 'elvont' meaning 'drawn away'. 'Withdrawn' might be good, but has another meaning today, of course, or perhaps 'unreal' but that's a bit vague?

Gallitrot: I agree with you, and I'm rather earnest about working to make this a success. I would truly like to see it have a wider take up. It will take a lot to make that happen, but that's fine, I'm willing to put work into it for quite a while. This is no hobby for me.

Can I ask where else you talk or post about this project? Do you have a personal website, a blog, or something? I'm always looking for new things and new work.

Jayles: I think at the moment (or even far into the future) we should call this not a language, but an "invitation". There are an awful lot of misbeliefs about French Latin and Greek in English, and like you say they're taught even in schools with "proper" words for things. We're basically asking folk to think again about the words they use, but without needfully having all the answers.

As for "abstract", I always think that using a calque should be the last thing we do. It often leads to ugly words, and ones without clear meanings. We should start with the meaning first, say of "a thought or characteristic apart from any physical or specific object", and work from there. We can then say what category of things it belongs to, in this case most likely "thought". So it's a kind of thought, but what kind? Well, it's completely thought and deliberately nothing but! So maybe "utterthought" or "sheerthought" would do, but they do sound a little clunky. Maybe "allthought" is better? I don't know, and I'm not in a position to choose. Like I said, it's only an invitation to think differently about our language, and I can't choose for anybody.

Thorn: yes; of course the end deemingmark (ultimate criterion) must be whether a middling reader would rightly understand the word within the framework of the utterance.
A big hurdle for most folk is that they are not aware of the roots of the wordstock unless it is uncloudedly latinate in form. So "unreal" and "untouchable" are not openly of latin roots. We cannot await that everyone is true tongue-lover (!!!) like you.

Nice one, Thorn! Wonderfully put!

I don't really have a blog, as I started one and got side tracked somewhat by a 'conservation' project / buildwardship undertaking - I do however, have some contact to David Cowley who wrote How We'd Talk If The English Had Won in 1066, he is of likemind with you and I that there is a stead for English to be sheered into a more English frumefriendly shape again.

...Naturally, when I say 'English frumefriendly ' then I mean from a purely speech-tongue perspective and not some misguided rightwing idea of hallowed nationalism/ landishness.

I have heard of Cowley's book, but have not read it. It seemed more "what if" than a serious suggestion, but maybe I was wrong? However, I must say that I'm not of the belief that just because a word was in Old English it should now be in English. So many words went quite naturally, and many others are so long dead, that there's no point inlivening them. I would rather first work with what we have, and only slowly look to dialects and recently dead words. That way we have the greatest chance of winning folk over, as then they will see it is only a "kind" of English, and not something otherworldly.

If you do decide to blog or write anywhere else, do let me know. I would also like to read whatever you put on your old blog, if it's still up. As I said, I'm just happy to read what others are doing.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Frume