“Anglish”

@Jayles

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Respect!!!

What a bloody tragedy that the word's been coined, as the OE word for origin would indeed give us the modern word 'frume', ah well back to the drawing board with that... but ''frume-friendly' is one helluva a word!

@Thorn,

Cowley, though suggesting the weird and wonderful edlivening of words long since out of daily use, does firstly suggest in his book that we should broaden the scope of the English words we have already. Use them as an 'ord' of wordhoard and then up their input in our quides/sentences.

@Jayles...

On further inspection/ throughsight it seems that the word 'frume' is not widely used as a colloqialism for 'lady bits'...though odd that the word should be used to beshow the 'source' of human/werekin life. There's a place in England called Frome, they claim it hithers to us from OE ffraw meaning fair... I think it's most likely akin to the word 'fruma'.

þ > "I must say that I'm not of the belief that just because a word was in Old English it should now be in English. So many words went quite naturally, and many others are so long dead, that there's no point inlivening them."

How do you mean, " so many words went quite naturally..."? Which words? How does one know they went away "naturally"?

Why do you think there is no good end to bring back "long dead" O.E. words? I say they have been asleep for a few hundred years, but not dead.

@þ ... I hav to gainsay that the yahoo mailing list is "better" than this thread. The mailing list has worth, but I wouldn't say it is better.

1. This thread is open to all. Thus, anyone who comes to Pain in the English can see it. And it shows up on search engines. Yu can do a search on "byspel" and one of the hits will be one of my comments on this thread.

2. For me it's much faster to do a search on this page or the fore-page to find a word or comment.

3. Also for me, my binding to the net on some days is such that I can't post to an email group but I can post here … Then there are days that I can't post to either. There is a fix on the way but it'll be a while. (BTW, fix is a Latinate that I'm keeping. It's in the "Suthren" tung. It's not going anywhere.)

I try to note the words on other blogs or my own writings. For byspel … byspel has besteaded example in my wordstock. So even if I am on another blog or forum, I note byspel. I also note either brook, note, or benote for use … hangs on how the word fits. I wrote blog about a mishap that I had about a year ago and noted the word "forbleeding" for "bleeding profusely" … "I was forbleeding" and "I was bedoven in blood". (Bedoven = immersed, soaked … here: covered.)

In a novel I'm writing, only a few days ago I slipped in "samod" for simultaneously. I waiting to hear from my beta readers to see if they bemoan about it or frain the word. I'v been slipping in more words lately and hav been told that I may be putting in too many.

Yu hav to note them elsewhere and be reddy to take the flak for it. There are linguisticians who will tell yu that yu this word or that word is from ME or OE as if yu can't note it. Mark how wiktionary deals the words into "English", "Middle English", and "Old English". Read the Talk for "tocome" ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:tocome ) and see how some nitpicky folks instand (insist, from ME insonden) that the word isn't "English" (meaning nowadays English) and that it is "Scots" or "Middle English". These same kind of folks will giv yu a lot of flak on other boards ... or even on other threads here on PainintheEnglish.

So, who is compiling and organizing all of these good suggestions into something more easily readable?

Ængelfolc: When I say "naturally" I simply mean replaced with a word that is not FLaG. We can think of third person plural pronouns as a good example, which gave way to ones from Old Norse without FLaG input. Nobody would suggest they be brought back, and there's no need for them to be brought back.

Another such word, and one which has been brought back by some, is "fraign" or "frane". Why? "Ask" won out, but it's also from English, so why replace it? It doesn't matter if our main verb for that action is different from Old English, or that some Old English word isn't in English today. It makes not one bit of difference. So why do this?

We sometimes need to bring back old words when there is no other choice, but it's a big ask for potential readers or speakers to take them up, so we should limit it where we can. We could bring back hundreds upon hundreds of old words, but it makes it less and less likely that anybody outside of a small audience is going to be interested. I want to see us be successful with this, and that's not going to happen if we just make an "Old English Lite".

AnWulf: It's okay if you don't like the Anglish Moot Yahoo Group, that's fine. But this isn't a good place to talk and discuss. It only allows comments in one single thread, and we have no control over how it's organized or what happens to it. I have a blog http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/ which I've been doing for a month, and I think everybody else should blog too. That way we each have space to get our thoughts down and invite others to comment directly upon them. At this time we need everybody to write in order to build up a critical mass, so to speak, of workfulness and really have the groundwork for a proper community.

Ceolfrid: I'm currently writing a wordbook of all modern English words that aren't FLaG (French, Latin and Greek). It won't contain all the suggestions of everybody, but it will put a floor under the whole project, meaning that we can know every word we can use without having to look them up elsewhere. It will hold some new words, but only those least contentious. Also, it will be a "proper" wordbook, listing not just headwords, but their definitions too, like any other you might find.

I think the first draft should be available for feedback by June, and so something like a finished version a few months later. I've been on with it for years, but it's getting near now.

þ: These are good tidings, indeed. I have been following this thread for some time, now, and I am very interested in where this idea is going. I am trying (not very well) to use more Germanic words, and less Romance words, in my daily usage, and it would be good to have a resource from which to start.

How will you make your draft known to people? I would very much like to read it when it is available.

Ceolfrid: I don't yet know how I'll send out the draft! Probably announce it on my blog and the Anglish Moot list. But hey, I can send you a little now if you're really interested. Email me at rootsenglish@ymail.com and I'll send you a letter. It'll probably be S as that's the longest one. As I said, it's mostly current English words at the moment, with only a few additions. I hope in time to come to slowly add in new words which I feel have a good chance of being successful.

You have to promise to give feedback though!

þ:

I am definitely interested, will contact you via e-mail, and promise to provide feedback. Ic thankie the!

Hey Thorn,

Backpatting of the highest rank to your bones!
Love it when someone with brains-for-brawn bethinks their idea is worthy of putting down on paper. You are right in your hinting that we should all write more, and shape gobbets/titbits of speach in the style we want to see the English tongue wend in.

I would heartily like to read your wordbook, sounds like a deed of strength/ tour de force keep us all posted on its forthgang.

Gallitrot: Just email me at the address I gave, and I'll send you S as well! Like a sneak forelook for you, but early feedback for me.

1)If we wish to make a good push toward de-latinizing English, we need to make the most common latinate words our bullseye. Thus standins for the following are the most needed in all their meanings and usages: person, part, place,case,point, company, government,number,problem, fact,use,different,large,important,public. These are in the top 100 commonest words today. Then we should trawl through the other common words:
http://www.world-english.org/english500.htm
2) There are over 1500 so-called "phrasal verbs" in todays English. They are not easy to find in a wordbook, but many make good standins. For instance:
work out

Jayles: you're right on the money with phrasal verbs. I have a draft post for on my blog waiting to be published, but you've beaten me to it! It's such a rich seam in modern English, we just can't ignore it.

Bingo! Phrasal verbs truly are the last vestiges/overlings of English, they are where are older words live on in their ordfrim(original) context. Things such as ' it hinges on' almost an evenlike of the German ' das haengt davon ab' and beautifully edholds/ retains the old irregular simple past of hang. Hurray for phrasals, but they need to be regularised to make them standard and easier to learn. Phrasal verbs are f@ckers for outlanders trying to learn English as they've no almeanlaw. Monoglot anglophone linguists love these quirky unlearnables as they falsely believe it makes English unigue and outstanding to other EU tongues - no, it makes it unneedly difficult and muddlesome.

By the way, did English ever have a suffix like '-able' ?

@þ ... I didn't say that I didn't like the yahoo grupe ... It's that I like this better overall. An email grupe is likely better for those long-winded writings.

@Jayles
person - freke http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freke
part - dole, deal (I forgot where I read that piece might hav Teutonic (Gaulish) roots.
place - stead, stow
case - (hangs on how yu mean it)
point - ord http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ord
company - business
government - rikedom
number - rime, a "large number" is a tale.
problem ... In the end, it is Greek; I think this one likely stays
fact - (hangs on how yu mean it)
use - (verb): note, benote, brook; (noun): noting, benoting, brooking
different - nother http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nother
large - big, great ... enlarge: biggen, embiggen
important - meaningful, (also part of the verb "to reck" ... it recks not: It's not important
public - again, hangs on how yu mean it ... the "public" - the folk. A public park - an open park.

It think I'v said this before. I don't hav a problem with Greek-rooted words any more than I hav with Teutonic words that came thru Latin to English (like farm). The Greeks didn't take over Rome and shove the words down their throats. The Greeks didn't try to take over the Teutonic folk (The Greeks were too busy with the Persians). Greek has consonant clusters somewhat like English (like th) so words like "throne" lude (sound) much like Teutonic words. Greek not only lived thru the Latin onslaught but the Romans borrowed heavily from Greek and Greek was still the lingua franca of the Mediterranean (mark that the New Testament was written Greek even while the rikedom was in Latin and the disciples were erd-speakers of Aramaic). Many of the fore-1066 church words were Greek-rooted that were borrowed into Latin. When there is an eath-swap for the Greek-rooted word, then take it ... half-world insted of hemisphere.

Most of the short Latinates don't truly bother me like case or fact. A few I even like ... like "prey". It's those long ones that are unneeded and giv rise to the wrong mindset of their loftiness.

Here's an eye-biting (fascinating/interesting) list of English Latinates supposedly of Teutonic upspring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Latinates_of_Germanic_origin

Some of the etyms look a little shaky ...

@Ceolfrid ... btw, yu're mixing yur right-spellings (orthographies). ... ic thance thee (or if yu hav like þ ... ic þance þe[e]) ... or ik thanke thee. ... Thankie kind of looks like Afrikaans dankie :)

I like the word 'upspring' but still think that there's a place for fruma and orde in their ordfrim/original meanings... after laughing my way through the Urban Dictionary online then I was aware fairly quickly that on that site no word is hallowed, and nearly every likely variation of a word in English has a double meaning on there. So I suppose we've just got to set about reconditioning words.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ordfruma

Ordfromer - creator (OE ordfruman)

Seeing as Fruma is akin to 'from' then maybe 'frome' really is better for an anewing of the OE word... I know, I know, Im getting besotted...but I'll be hellfired if a word that should be rightly updated gets stopped in its path by a bunch of ignorant kids who have misbrooked it for a 'minge' :/

Benchmarking: as I didn't know what was meant by "frume" I just googled it. I googled "rikedom" and got the swedish meaning (wealth). The true benchmark test should be that the reader can easily find the right meaning (whether on the internet or from a good wordbook). I thought "overlordbody" might be more readily understood than "rikedom".

@AnWulf: "Here's an eye-biting (fascinating/interesting) list of English Latinates supposedly of Teutonic upspring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_La...

Some of the etyms look a little shaky ..."

Which ones do you find shaky?

"By the way, did English ever have a suffix like '-able' ?"

-endlīc "able to; capable of" (-ende + -līc)

@jayles: "If we wish to make a good push toward de-latinizing English, we need to make the most common latinate words our bullseye."

Yes, you are right. That shouldn't be too hard.

Of the first 100 most said, 96% are from Teutonic roots, 4% from Latin. Of the 500 most said, about 75% are of Teutonic roots, about 20% are Latin, 3%Greek, and 1% are Celtic. There is also one Persian word (check) and one of mixed roots > 'perhaps' (L/Teut.). Also, maybe two are of Etruscan roots instead of Latin.

Funny enough, many Latin words have unknown roots.It might be worth keeping Latin words like Mile (early Germanic borrowing before the year 1000), Pound (early Germanic borrowing before the year 1000), Port (early Germanic borrowing before the year 900), and Street (early W.Germanic borrowing before the year 900), since they are true loans. Also, maybe we should feel something for the five (maybe four--one is iffy) Celtic words, and let them stay.

We can put words that were thrust out back in their rightful stead: City < Burgh; Cause < Sake, Andwork; Large < Stoor, Stour, Muchel; Point < Ord, and so on.

Odd Word Root:

Common < M.E./A.N. < OFr. comun < loan-mark out (calque) of Frankish gemeini, gamaini "common" (see G. gemein, E. mean) + L. commūnis. The Frankish and Latin words share a PIE root and meaning.

@Jayles ... in Swedish, the adj. rike is a cognate with English rich ... thus rikedom (Sw) = richdom (En). The noun rike is a cognate with the English rike (sovereignty, dominion, authority ... and the land of such authority) ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rike ... Thus rikedom is like kingdom but with rike insted of king. There was ricedom in ME that had both meanings ... wealth and sovereignty. I'll dig about in a bit and see if there is a nowadays English rikedome buried somewhere.

From OE:
frum - primal, original, first
frumlic - original, primitive
fruma m. - beginning, origin, cause; creation; originator, inventor, founder, creator: first-born; prince, king, chief, ruler. on fruman at first

@Ængelfolc ... well, without looking at the list ... avant-garde (vanguard) comes to mind ... I kno that guard is of Teutonic roots but avant (advance) looks Latin. There were a few others.

I can't see where common is a calque of Frankish gemeini + communis ... looks like it is straight from communis and besteaded gemeini.

Yes, "-endlic" often = "-able" ... But "do-andlic" doesn't yet hav the weight of "do-able" but in many words it could likely be swapped. ... walkendlic for walkable? Sometimes the -lic afterfast alone works ... mightlic (OE mihtlic) for possible.

Jayles: your thought of a benchmark is right, and we need to think how words that we say look or feel to the reader. I would take it further and say there are three steps to this:

1) Sniff it out: can a reader even know that it's not "English"? If we can write without them even thinking there is something other about our words, then that's the greatest writing we can do.

2) Work it out: even if a reader can spot some oddness in our words or wording, can they at least work out what is meant? If yes, then that's great, as it means that they don't need a helping hand and can still feel it's "their" tongue.

3) Find it out: the last step is whether somebody can look up a word and find its meaning. Hopefully that will become a softer thing to do once we have a wordbook, but it still speaks against any truly odd words being written. We must learn to make such words only one or two, here and there, in what we write.

As for "rikedom", you're right that it can't be looked up. It's not even a good word for "government". "Rike" means, more or less, "state", and that can be looked up quickly. But the "-dom" ending makes words that are of the meaning of "something ruled over or the state of", such as wisdom, freedom, kingdom, boredom, and so on. "Rikedom" would then mean something like "territory of a state" or its "limits of sovereignty". "Government" isn't among the meaning it could have, but I don't know yet how to say that word.

"Overlordbody" is a thought, but I wonder if there is something better. I know in Old English a new king would "feng to rice", which means "take hold of the kingdom", and we still talk about folk "losing grip on power". So maybe we can work from that, moreso upon the thought that a rike outlasts anybody who runs its, as they're often only there for four or five years. Maybe "rikeholder" would work? Such as "the rikeholders have chosen to go to war come what may".

@AnWulf:

"avant-garde (vanguard) comes to mind ... I kno that guard is of Teutonic roots but avant (advance) looks Latin."

The list seems to have a few of these mixed words; Avant is Latin "front, before, forward, earlier". I don't think that the etym's are shaky... some words may be on the wrong page. The writer did not take out mixed rooted words. Also, it looks as if the writer is highlighting that the word was built over a main Germanic word.

As for COMMON > I think so, too. That is why I called it odd. I saw this here http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/common < maybe there is some new break-through? I can see how L. commūnis would be bolstered by the Frankish word, which had the same meaning and might've been said nearly the same. Keep in mind, it is only now that the great Frankish bearing on French is being found out. I am caught off-guard all the time by words that I thought were L.Fr., but are really misspoken Frankish.

GOVERNMENT < which meaning are we talking about? In the UK, doesn't this mean the PM and Cabinet Ministers? In the U.S., I think this is said to mean the body of bureaucracy.

Old English has many words for "government", which is hinged upon one's meaning. I think "sovereignty" was O.E. dryhtendōm. I would put forth that a word that means the same as Republic should be made. After all, I think most folks would want to be free, and rule themselves.

Ængelfolc: the state and its bureaucracy can just be referred to as the "rike". In England there's no distinction made with "state", so I don't see why we should seek one. "Government" in my mind are the elected or appointed people who rule or run the rike for a given time, and that's what I would like to call "rikeholders" or the like.

As for "republic", I'm curious what the difference is between that and "a democracy" (that is, a democratic country, and not the idea of democracy itself). For the latter I would definitely just say "folkdom", that is, something which is of or pertains to the folk, but I know that other definitions of "republic" wouldn't fit within that.

OE ricedom n. Power, rule, dominion: Ðín rícedóm ofer ús ríxie ... usually translated as: 'thy kingdom come' [word for word: Thy rikedom over us govern.]
[O. Sax. ríki-dóm power : O. Frs. ríke-dóm : O. H. Ger. ríhhi-tuom imperium; divitiae : Icel. rík-dómr power; wealth.]

rícenn f. A female endowed with power, a goddess :-- Rícenne Diane
rîcsere m. ruler
rîcsian, rixian to bear rule, reign, govern, tyrannize; dominate, prevail.
rîceter, rîcetere n. force, might, power, rule, dominion, ambition; tyranny, oppression, violence.

ME richedom sovereignty: Cadwalan hefde castles swiðe monieᵹe, and þe richedom stod mære on Cadðwalanes hond.

Rikedom is only the updated spelling of ricedom ... power, rule, dominion ... What is government but power?

So far, none of my beta readers hav asked what rikedom means and I didn't gloss it, so I can only think that it was eath to see in context: All women on the dole or getting help from the rikedom for a child, had to have an IUD put in.

"Government" : whether it be a dictatatorship (overlordship) or a kingdom or a democracy,a cabinet or a president, government does not define the form. Besides, like many words, "governement" has two meanings - the body itself (countable), and the process (carry-on,means) of governing - "Good government entails a two-sided dialogue between the executive and the people."
Another instance is the word "crime". We commit a crime (the act).
But we can also talk about the process of crime in general: crime is rife.
There are quite a number of words like this where the meaning changes and there are two forms, one countable and the more generalized meaning is uncountable.

þ:

A Republican government and a Democratic government are not the same thing. See here http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/01/republic-democracy-whats-the-difference/ for a good run down of the two.

"The first European republic after the demise of the Roman Republic in 44-27 BC, was the Icelandic Commonwealth, which also saw the establishment of the world's oldest existing parliament, the Althing. The Icelandic Commonwealth was established in 930 AD by refugees from Norway who had fled the unification of that country under King Harald Fairhair." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

Wow! Go Iceland!

"Republicanism may be distinguished from other forms of democracy as it asserts that people have unalienable rights that cannot be voted away by a majority of voters."-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States#cite_note-4 and John Phillip Reid, Constitutional History of the American Revolution (2003) p 76

What I was saying was:

Government (body of bureaucracy) in America = what the British call the State.

Government in British English = what Americans call the Administration.

That's all. One word; unalike takes on the same words meaning and brooking.

Seeing as we've the suffix ' -ric' at the end of 'bishopric' can't we maintain this spelling? So then 'ricdom' or even 'rickdom'.

Oh and I thought the suffix '-lic' in OE gave us the nowadays '-ly' ?

"Oh and I thought the suffix '-lic' in OE gave us the nowadays '-ly' ?"

It did.

Gallitrot: I remember having the same conversation some years ago (like 2005). I argued for -ric at the time, but I remember that Bryan Parry (a great guy) won me over to rike. I *think* the key point was that the sound in -ric only came about through being on the end of a word, and rike was the standalone word. But I can't remember, and I can't find the emails or pages where the discussion took place. I'm happy to have the discussion again if there was an appropriate venue.

On the discussion about state and government and administration: there's clearly a split between the territory, the structures, the possessions, the employees of a country, let's say Canada, and the people who make up the Harper "government", that is, elected people and those whom he appointed, and who will change when a different party is elected. Regardless of what we call them in English, the first is the "rike", and the second is what we're trying to figure out, whether we call it "government" or "administration". Basically, the people who temporarily control the rike.

The bureaucracy is bumbledom: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bumbledom

@Gallitrot - bishopric/bishoprike/bishop-rike ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rike see the 1857 quote) is more of a kenning (compound) than an afterfast. The -ric hides the meaning of "rike" and looks a lot like -ic.

The -lic gives us the adjectiv -ly with a meaning of "like" ... brotherly (brotherlike).

The -lice gives us the adverbial -ly from adjectivs ... greatly.

So we alreddy hav the -ly doing twofold work. The -ic can be from French, Latin, or Greek but, natheless, it is a well-known afterfast. So edquickening -lic in a few words like mightlic doesn't seem out of place to an English speaker. ... And I think it has a better lude than mightly. But folks will hav to work it out to see which one they like better.

I take it that freke and freak have the same pronunciation??
"The Republican primaries give members the opportunity to choose the best freke for the job" ???

@jayles ... with today's right-spelling (orthography), it would hav to rhyme with freak ... BUT ... in OE and sometimes ME it looks like it would be said as frec or frek. However, freke is the spelling that made it to today's English.

ME freke (n.) Also freik(e, fraik, frake, frekke, freche. Pl. frekes & (early) freken from OE freca. ... (a) A brave man, a warrior, a man-at-arms; (b) a man; (c) a human being, a person; a creature such as a giant, demon, angel.

Go not forthe as a dombe freke ... Book of Courtesy, 1475

"freak" from dictionary.com:
"a person or animal on exhibition as an example of a strange deviation from nature; monster. "
Might be sone misunderstanding when spoken; but I guess that's where the laugh is.

Jayles: you should see my family, they're all frekes!

Seriously though, I think something like "body" or a variant might work. Many sentences with "person" in can be slightly rewritten to take anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, and just body. After all, that's one of the meanings the word used to have, and supposedly does still in Scots. So, "I know a body who play tennis semi-professionally," wouldn't be the start of the zombie tennis invasion! In fact, that sentence could easily take "somebody" as it is, so we see how it fits (albeit roughly) with how the language already works.

DID THE VIKINGS NAME AMERICA?

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/viking.html

Enthralling Thought > rík(i) (P/Gmc. rīk(i)ja) might not be the best word to mean "government": Germanic tribes said reiks, rhix, rik-, to mean a "war-lord" king < one who became the leader of a folk through war. Hence the manifold word meaning of -ric- "wealthy, great, mighty, ruler, king, power(ful), authority, dominion, empire, reign. To give gainsay, Wulfilas, when writing the Christian bible in Gothic, did not write rīk(i)ja when talking about Jesus: "Art thou the King of the Jews?" was written "Thu is Thiudans Iudaie?".- John 18.33 in Gothic by Wulfilas.

The Germanic word for "leader, ruler, king" was Thiudan(s), and meant "of kingly blood". The Germanic folk took Thiudan(s) to mean that their leader was of a godly bloodline; A thiudan(s) was holy, in a way, to his theod.

Maybe rícedóm is a bit iron-handed? The ending -dóm means dominion, power, authority, property, right, office, quality, state, condition. So, why not thiud-dóm (see Cyne-dóm a king's power, office, etc. a kingdom). Or, Folkdóm, Leód-dóm, which is more in-line with the ideas of Repbulic and folks ruling themselves?

-dom — abstract suffix of state, from O.E. dom "statute, judgment" (see doom), already active as a suffix in O.E. (cf. freodom, wisdom); from stem *do- "do" + *-moz abstract suffix. Cf. cognate Ger. -tum, O.H.G. tuom.

-dom |dəm|
suffix
forming nouns:
1 denoting a state or condition: freedom.
2 denoting rank or status: earldom.
3 denoting a domain: fiefdom.
4 denoting a class of people or the attitudes associated with them, regarded collectively: officialdom

As for thiud (which as good as other spellings), there is theod (noted by today's heathens) from OE þeod nation, people [Goth. þiuda a nation, people; pl. the gentiles: O. Sax. thiod, thioda a people; in pl. men: O. L. Ger. thiad gens, natio: O. Frs. thiade people, men: O. H. Ger. diot, diota gens, populus, plebs, natio: Icel. þjóð a nation, people; in a local sense, a land, country.]

I think folkdom might bewrite (describe) "republic" (res ‘entity’ + publicus ‘of the people, public'. [folk+dom ... of the folk]). Folkmain would be a calque of democracy (dēmos ‘the people’ + -kratia ‘power’). Main here has the old meaning of power: might and main.

It's a philosophical mindset. To me, gov't IS heavy-handed and all the negativs of word reich/rike. BTW, reich is loan to English as well. I think for-reich (forreich) or for-rike would be a good word for "nationalize" and for-reichness would be "nationalization". I put it in an email the other day and it seems to be understood by the readers. At least no one sent me an email back asking about it.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. — George Washington

@Ængelfolc ... Good writ on the upspring of America. Who knows. Maybe when the Univ. of Toronto ends it project to catalog every OE word, there might be hint in there of the word. Some of the traders must hav known about it. Maybe one wrote it down.

AnWulf: "BTW, reich is loan to English as well."

Are you saying 'reich' was borrowed from New German into New English?

@AnWulf: "It's a philosophical mindset. To me, gov't IS heavy-handed and all the negativs of word reich/rike."

I am with you, but I would rather stay with the wisdom of a Republic and the American Founders Fathers where the God-given rights of each man would be, more or less, shielded from a Rike's overreach. 'Reich/Rike' doesn't seem to mean that, does it?

Yes, Reich is an English word in the witt that it is in our wordbooks: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Reich So, reich does hav a negativ air about it which is why I like "for-reich" for "nationalize" better than "for-rike". To me, again philosophically, nationalization is heavy-handedness of gov't. For-, here, can mean both "for" ... as in for the reich ... and the negativ intensifier that the for- forefast often has. It fits.

When asked what type of government the American folk were going to hav, by a well-meaning woman, a stern Benjamin Franklin answered, "A republic, madam, if you can keep it."

In my eyen, the Republic was mortally wunded by Lincoln when he invaded the South. Ever since then, it has slowly forbled as the maegan (power) of the federal rikedom has grown, mostly unstopped, ever since. Sadly, it was also Ben Franklin who gave us a hint of a foreboding when he said, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ... Which is what we hav today ... neither.

So in my short story of an over-reaching gov't, rikedom fits.

I'v been doing some reading where the word "folkdom" has been noted. It's mostly noted as an oversetting of German "Volkstum" which seems to be a Hitler euphemism for "race". One book gave a meaning of, "It means the Volk way of life, organically integrated within one's own nationality and race ..."

So while I think, as a word, folkdom would be a good calque of "republic", I think it would quickly be linked to "Volkstum" and hav a harmfulness (negativity?) about it. Still, a folkdom (republic) as a kind of rikedom (gov't) fits.

OTOH, the word to govern is itself a Greek-rooted word from kubernan ‘to steer’.

I'm pretty sure that parliament would be something like 'wittenmoot' and government just plain 'witten'.

Aaaaand I'm done here. If anybody would like to talk to me, or read my stuff with chatter about the US Civil War and how awful government is, my blog is at: http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/

@AnWulf: "reich does hav a negativ air about it which is why I like "for-reich" for "nationalize" better than "for-rike". To me, again philosophically, nationalization is heavy-handedness of gov't. For-, here, can mean both "for" ... as in for the reich ... and the negativ intensifier that the for- forefast often has. It fits."

Again, we are of like mind on this. For-Rike/For-Riken/For-Rikening are great to mean "nationalize".

So, how about a blend of Rikedom and Folkdom? Folkrikedom.

Or maybe only Folkrike? ... Or would that be socialism/communism? It's giving me a headache ... I think it is one that needs to be set aside for while til a begeistness (inspiration) hits. Nothing has be solved right away. No need to force it ... it'll find its way.

Witan http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/witan is short for witanagemoot http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/witenagemot , the Anglo-Saxon national council or parliament.

Ahhh, if only our politicians fit the meaning of Witenagemoot >>> "Meeting of Wise Men"

;-)

I just stumbled over this ... I was wondering what might hav been the OE word that matches German "Stück" (a piece) ... Well, it was almost the same: stycce (also sticce) ... piecemeal was styccemælum. ... y=ü in OE.

I found it in ME as stuche/stucche ... pl. is stucchen.

A few cites in erly nowadays English ... stiche.

I'm tired and going to bed soon ... I'll dig some more if my binding to the net will stay up long enuff to do anything!

I just stumbled over this ... I was wondering what might hav been the OE word that matches German "Stück" (a piece) ... Well, it was almost the same: stycce (also sticce) ... piecemeal was styccemælum. ... y=ü in OE.

I found it in ME as stuche/stucche ... pl. is stucchen.

A few cites in erly nowadays English ... stiche.

I'm tired and going to bed soon ... I'll dig some more if my binding to the net will stay up long enuff to do anything!

Hey Anwulf, to be fair I reckon it would have ended up as the word 'stitch', you know, as in ' not wearing a stitch'. I think this phrase has confused its meaning over time as people infer the meaning thread due to clothing. I suppose the word 'steak' is another likelihood, as beef steak is just a variant of the word piece of cow. I yeasay the modernising of 'stitchmeal' but 'bitmeal' is also a mightlihood and existed in OE, plus it's more atgoly from present words in use.

@Gallitrot ... That was a thought that I had as well but "stitch" has its own etym. and is akin to "stick". I wouldn't be amazed if they were all blended somehow.

Beefsteak is halfbreed. A blend of beef+steak.

Steak is thought to be akin to ON steik ... also akin to stick.

Beef is a Latinate.

@Ængelfolc ... Here's one for yur etym skills:

release ... Middle English: from Old French reles (noun), relesser (verb), said to be from from Latin relaxare ‘stretch out again, slacken’ (see relax) .

But then we find in OE ... lǣs (likely said as lease) ... often seen as lǣswe (>>> ME leswe/lesewe (pl. leswen/lesewen) >>> NE leasow) ... From Proto-Germanic *lēswō. ... a pasture, field.

From this we hav the verb: lǣswian ... to depasture (set loose in a pasture), graze, feed >>> ME lēswen (to tend to animals in the field) and ME lēsen (said as leasen) ... to set free, to loosen ... to release! ... (lesen can also mean to lose).

"...ant lesen him of pine" ... and release him from pain ... Ancrene Wisse, c1230

Is there a Frankish word along the same line that might be the root or sumdeal (somedeal) the root of OF relesser?

...BTW, "leswe" silver was "lease" money to rent (lease) a leasow.

This is from a book on Excel: Navigating dialog boxes is generally very easy — you simply click the control you want to activate.

Something I read >>>

"There were also superstratum languages, such as the Germanic Frankish that overran Latin in France only to disappear later on (the language incorrectly became known as 'French'; the ones who really speak 'French' = Frankish are the Dutch)." - p.70, Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction by Robert S. P. Beekes and Michiel de Vaan (2011)

"Is there a Frankish word along the same line that might be the root or sumdeal (somedeal) the root of OF relesser?"

PIE lē(i)- 'to weaken, leave behind; feeble' >>> Frankish *lāz(z)an "to let, leave behind, allow" (akin to OSax. lātan, OHG lāz(z)an, ON láta, Goth lētan, OE lǣtan, lēt, lēton, lǣten > OFr. lesser, lais(s)ier > O.Fr. re + laisser "to relinquish, quit, let go, leave behind,"

Some say that the OFr. word is a blend of Frankish *lāz(z)an and 'Late Latin' lassō/ lassare...but...I'm not not won over by that thought yet. Anyway, I also think it a stretch to say that the word is only from Latin.

PIE les- 'to lease, collect, pick up' ----> OE lesan, læs, lǣson, lesen "to lease" ----> New-Eng. lease "to glean, gather, collect, pick up/out"

I forgot to give the PGMC root:

PIE les- 'to lease, collect, pick up' ----> PGmc. *lisan- "gather" (see Gothic *lisan "collect, gather" ----> OE lesan, læs, lǣson, lesen "to lease" ----> New-Eng. lease "to glean, gather, collect, pick up/out"

PIE *lēy-, *lēi-d- "to leave, to let" >>> PGmc. *lē-, *lētan- "to leave, to let" ----> Gothic *lētan "release, forgive"

All about STEAK:

New Eng. Steak (akin to stick, stake, stitch) steikir "is roasting", steikt/steikta/steikti "roasted"; ON stika "rod"; ON stikna "to be roasted or scorched"; ON steikari "a cook"); akin to OE sticca (n.), stician (v.) < PGmc. *stik- (-kon-), *stikkô, *stikkēn "to pierce, stab, prick, to be stuck with a sharp tool" > TZAKESEMEN, NE-TZAKESEMEN: I apply the fire to something, I light up

All about BEEF:

BEEF > came into English about 1250-1300 A.D.

To unaddle a bit more:

BEEF > came into English about 1250-1300 A.D.

All about Stück:

NG Stück, Stock

Not bad, Aengelfolc.

The word stock is actually fair broadly nooted. In its rightnowly shape then I don't see why it couldn't be applied to mean 'piece'.

Well, has anyone thought about what one says when asking for some chewing gum?

"May I have a 'stick' of gum?"

"number - rime, a "large number" is a tale."
I could not track down "rime" other than meaning "hoar frost". Whence cometh this word?
By the by "case" either "plight" or "byspell" will often fit.

@jayles

NE rhyme

I'd like to bring up the word 'shark' and its mysterious origin. Before the word came into the language any ravenous marine fish, I believe, were known as a 'sea dogs'. I've always preferred this to 'shark' anyway and there are a few species of shark known as 'dogfish' to this day.

There is no proper name for it that I knowe, but that sertayne men of Captayne Haukinses doth call it a 'sharke' [handbill advertising an exhibition of the specimen, 1569]

This from Wikipedia,
"Until the 16th century, sharks were known to mariners as 'sea dogs'. The etymology of the word 'shark' is uncertain. One theory is that it derives from the Yucatec Maya word 'xok', pronounced /shok/. Evidence for this etymology comes from the OED, which notes the name 'shark' first came into use after Sir John Hawkins' sailors exhibited one in London in 1569 and used the word 'sharke' to refer to the large sharks of the Caribbean Sea."

I'd imagine Captain Hawkins' servants were not German-speakers but more likely enslaved natives from the Americas

Hey HM,

That night not quite be true, the Old English word for shark seems to survive in North Sea fisherman's parlance as 'hoe' which is the term for a dogfish. Now, very possibly affected by Norse, but considering German has Hai, and Dutch Haai, then I'd have thought the chance of it living on into modern English is fairly likely. There also are fish names like 'Hake', and 'Hagfish' that may still retain some etymology. Although they often give the connection to the word 'hook' then it is pure postulation on their part.

@Holy Mackerel, Gallitrot:

See here about Xoc & Shark: http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT07/Xoc-OCR.pdf

Shark maybe from Xoc, and maybe the only Mayan word in English. The :jury is still out", as they say.

NG Hai (-fisch) "shark" < Dutch/MLG Haai < MIsl. Hai < OIsl. Hái "shark, oarlock" < ON Hár "dogfish" < PGmc *hanhaz

Maybe so named by Germanic folks owing to it's angular, hooked trademark dorsal fin.

ME hay(e), hay-fish (pl. hayen] 16/17c.

Ooops....I meant....

"...in about the 15 or 1600's."

World O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verǫld (see Isl. veröld, Sw. värld), O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt, Danish/Norw. verden

John 3:16 "for God so loved the world..."
Οὕτω γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
If you notice the Greek says "kosmos" which is translated as "world".
(maybe: Thus Theos liked the kosmos..)
"wer" is still in "werewolf" I think.
What one learnt at Sunday School !!!

""wer" is still in "werewolf" I think."

Yes, you are right! English still has: PGMC. *weraz "man" ---> wer(e) "man, husband, hero" ---> world, werewolf, wergild(-geld), were-

Kosmos was written as manasēþs and faírƕus in Gothic.

John 3:16 "for God so loved the world..." ---> OE "God lufode middaneard swa þæt he sealde his ancennedan Sunu, þæt nan ne forwurðe þe on hine gelyfð, ac hæbbe þæt ece lif."

Grk. Kosmos in OE was written middan(ġ)eard "the World; middle land; middle Earth"

Sorry about the long post ... but I'm lucky to get something to go once ... so I hav to do it all at once. And sometimes it twofold posts.

That's cool about the ON word slipping into Algonquin. If it hadn't been for the Little Ice Age ... and some internal Viking politics ... we'd likely be speaking a dialect of ON!

OE stocc and stycce are nother (different) words. Stocc made it thru as stock but stycce > ME stucche/stuche, stiche, steche ... didn't make it thru Early NE.

One also asks for a "piece" of gum ... hanging on the shape.

"New" old words that barely made it into ME before being shoved aside:

openlic > public

gewunelic (also iwonelic) > ordinary, common, usual (Ger. gewöhnlich) ... same root as "wont/wonted" (from OE gewunod).
> also in OE was wunelic … adj. wonted, usual, accustomed

gemanelic(h) (also gemanlich, imænelich) > common (Ger. gemein) ... I'v also seen "meaner" in very old writs meaning "common" ... "the meaner man" ... the common man tho it wouldn't mean that nowadays!

lomlic(h) > frequent

missenlic > various, manifold, different, diverse
missenlicnes(se) > variety, diversity, difference (I didn't see this shape in ME, only in OE.)

Some more French words listed as Germanic roots (but not specific on the rootword) ... garrison (from garir ‘defend, provide’, of Germanic origin) and garret as well. My guess is that they are from the same root that OE gar (spear >>> garfish, garlic) is from. Is there a Frankish *gar that is the root of garir?

French haut (from which we get haughty) is said to come from the Latin altus but I think that's a little shaky. It is at least a blend of Frankish hoh + altus but liken O.Fris. hach, Goth. hauhs, and even Ger. hoch. Maybe it took the final t from Latin altus but I think giving the credit to Latin is a bit of a stretch.

Dance? It says that the end root is unknown. Did Ger. tanzen come from the French word or is that a common root? It's not Latin.

About the seemingly -endlic/endlic afterfast = able ... after doing some digging, I think the afterfast is only the -lic. The end/en is part of the word. For byspel, acoren (a-chosen) - pp of aceosan (a-choose) + lic = acorenlic = eligible, worthy of choice.

acumen (a-come) + lic = acumen(d)lic = possible, tolerable
acumen(d)licness = possibility

miht (might) + lic = mihtlic = possible

There are many others. But will it work? Well, if we take broken and put the -lic afterfast we get "brokenlic" for breakable, fragile which I think works better than brokenly (tho brokenly stands but means "in a broken manner"). ... OK, I cheated, the word stood in ME ... brocenlic > breakable, fragile, eathly broken or benothinged ... made it to erly ME but then was insteded/besteded by fragile.

Anent rime ... it made it to ME both as a noun and a verb (rimen) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rime#Middle_English. If it made it to 1450, then it might hav made it to erly NE ... that will take a bit digging.

OE also had:
OE rīmboc (rimebook) - calendar
OE rīmcræft (rimecraft) - arithmetic, math
OE rīmtalu - number-tale (from which we get tale as a big number).

Here's a good word: hella ... from "helluva ... from hell of a lot of" ... means many things ... very, much, a lot of, actually, really ... and has been put forth as a forefast for 10^27 ... Google notes as the forefast for 10^27 ... I think makes the first anglo-rooted forefast for big numbers. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hella and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hella_(word)

Hella was inheld on the BBC's list of 20 words that sum up the 2000-2009 decade.

garrison, abt. 1250 or so

"OE stocc and stycce are nother (different) words."

Yes, they have two nother meanigs, but they share the same PGmc. and PIE roots.

command (noun) : behest (I like this)
command (verb) : can one really use behest as a verb? "bid" seems more like "ask"
commander : leader/bidder seem slightly off the mark; "behester" ????

PGmc. *haitanan [*hais(s)iz] “to call, command, summon” >> OE hēht (past of hātan, “to be named, be called”; ME. hight (hoten); also E. hest [hǣs “command”], behest [OE behǣs “vow, promise”]), Low German heten; German heißen, Geheiß; Danish hedde; Dutch heten; and Swedish heta

In German, we have der Feldherr "Commander", der Befehlshaber, der Gebieter, der Anführer among others.

Old English has Campealdor, Wīgfruma, Wīga, Hildfruma, Fyrdwīsa, Hererǣswa, Heretoga (see G. Herzog), among others.

Commander is mainly noted as a rank (navy) or position (division commander) ... other than that, leader (flight leader, platoon leader) is likely the most common term.

OE had gebōd (gebode) for order, mandate, command ... but no noun form like geboder.

I was watching some re-runs of the TV space-western "Firefly". Some fetching (interesting) word noting.

Bound by law = under arrest
wave = message as both a noun and verb ... as a signal.
>Did you get my wave? ... We got the wave at the Friedlich's. (Episode4-Safe)
> I can send him a wave, see what I can do. (Episode5-Our Mrs. Reynolds)

A great thing about weeding out borrowings is that it would lessen how much one could hide the truth:

British Airways Euphemism from 2004: "filing a property irregularity report" >> In English, this means that the airline lost one's bags/luggage.

It has been said that English came into being about the year 449. Anyone have thoughts about this? Stephen Oppenheimer has put forth that English may have already been spoken in what is now England before then.

Hey just stumbled across this...don't know who it's by, but it's definitely running with the whole Anewed English/ Anglish theme.

http://www.wordnik.com/words/yeasay

@AEngelfolc, yeasaid! I hate what should be said plainly being put into crap twomeaningness, particularly when it concerns law or criminal acts, or simply the authorities admitting they've made a boo-boo.

One in the eye, I reckon... forgive the pun

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chivesborn

There were Saxon-speaking troops in the Roman Army in Britain after 286 AD ???
With their whanau?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonicisms_in_English

Sorry I wasn't around to witness it all.

So by forbus, today's English is a chivesborn tongue?

@Ængelfolc, I guess that would hinge on what "English" means. Many still call "Old English" Anglo-Saxon. With the right wordstock, one can still read most Middle English writs but OE/AS is tuff. What makes OE/AS nother from Saxon? I don't kno ... Somewhen someone has to draw a line. Going from OE to ME is fairly clear ... We can see a lot of changes after from about 1200 on (and one can see the other changes from the Norman Takeover til then.