“Anglish”

@Gallitrot yes betell is stil in the wordbook but unlike German it never meant to pay in English it seems. "Tell" still has the meaning of "count", as in "tally" but not "pay". "Yield" still has the meaning "pay" in the wordbook and works for me in "She yielded me $100" but not in "She yielded for lunch". (Sounds like I paid for lunch and she yielded!)
When talking of gelt "Yield" is mosly used to mean "produce a return" on an stakeholding, so the is room for much muddling. "be-yield" ???

@jayles … LOL … I like that … "She yielded for lunch."

I would say, "She bought lunch."
Or, drop the 'for' … "She yielded lunch."

Settled the bill. … We might think that she 'quelled the bill', thus … she 'quelled for lunch'. Sounds rather harsh. She soothed for lunch? Still doesn't ring right.

Maybe 'alay' in the meaning of set aside, put to rest, settle. … She alaid the bill. Swithe much like 'paid' even tho it's two syllables (rather than one for paid) … it's more of a syllable and a half. She alaid for lunch? … Still sounds out … however, "She 'laid out' for lunch" fits right in. … OED: 3 informal he had to lay out $70. See pay (sense 2 of the verb).

There is a seld-seen noting of shill (or shil) … OE scylian (= ie) only in sc. of mâle - to pay off, discharge, Chronicles 1049. ['shill'] … She shilled the bill.

There is also 'agive' … to giv, impart, deliver, giv up, yield, relinquish; restore, return, repay, pay. … She agave lunch.

Made good … She made good the bill; made good for lunch?

Pay is one of those words with a twisted background … it means to "pacify, appease". So if she pays for lunch then she has 'pacified or appeased' the seller. We all take it that she did so with gelt and not her body.

@ Anwulf thanks for your help

"Dictionary of Worthless Words: 3,000 Words to Stop Using Now"

Right on, AnWulf! This book should be read and taught from in the hallowed halls of learning. By the way, great byspells!

"deadly deathly mortal lethal fatal - is this "enrichment" or just overkill?"

You've put your finger on something here. Indeed, I wale for overkill. :-)

enrichment < ME enrichen < AN/OF enrichir > "en-" (< Latin in- and Frankish *an-) + riche (< Frankish *rīki) + ment (L. -īre)

Lethal? Why not E. baneful (OE bana "slayer"; akin to ON bani "death, murderer")?

Fatal/Mortal? E. death-dealing, E. life-ending, among others.

Good one, Meadgetter!!

Seemingly Forgotten English Words

Wan < "dark or gloomy, dim"; "lacking hue/color"; "showing ill health, sickly looking"; "lacking in forcefulness, competence, or effectiveness, weak"; "lacking liveliness, boring"; v. "to become or make wan" [< ME/OE ƿann "dark, dusky, gloomy"; akin to Old Frisian wann, wonn “dark”]

(adjective) wan·ner, wan·nest, (verb) wanned, wans, wan·ning, wanly (adverb), wanness (noun)

"A wan saying..."

"She looked wan and worried..."

"A wan look"

"His job was a wan undertaking"

"activate, actuate - 'Begin' or 'start' say the same thing in simpler words."

I wouldn't say 'simpler' words, rather better understood because they are Germanic-English rooted words.

Englished PAY < OF paier < Med.L. pācāre "to settle" [w4w "to make peace"] came into English sometime in the 1200's. It sadly bereaved ME yelden, yielden “to pay” [ Today's E./Scot. 'yield'].

The French-speaking Normans had their sway from about 1066-1204 (Waning of the English). So, over time, 'pay' was shared by both the English and the Normans. It won out since the Normans ruled, and had great bearing on money and business at that time.

I may be wrong but I only saw six words (out of a 100) on this list that are anglo-teutonic. Most of the rest are Latin/Greek rooted: http://blog.writeathome.com/index.php/2012/11/100-words-every-high-school-graduate-should-know ... nonetheless. I did well on it but that's only for that I know too many Latinates!

@Ængelfolc ... "Simpler" was the bookwright's words. I quoted his text. The words after the *** are mine tho.

Wan is a fore-fast as in wanhope. Here's a list: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_wan-

British authors in the past eschewed latinate words on the grounds that they were generally too fancy but they used latinate sentence structure. Latin was taught in schools from the age of about seven (that's when I began) and the logic and clarity of Latin sentence organization was widely accepted.

@Skeeter, I don't English follows the Latin sentence framework. Truthfully, Latin is more like Yoda-speak in that the verb is often at the end. For byspel, Agricola filiam amat ... Farmer daughter loves.

As for "logic" and "clarity" ... well fairness is in the eye of the beholder. More than once I'v been baffle'd by a Latin phrase meant and wonder'd how the English oversetting came from those words. Let's look at "Agricola filiam amat." Many would set that as "The farmer loves his daughter." ... But it could mean, "A farmer loves the daughter." (Someone else's daughter.)

Now think how good it would be if Old English were taught in school at such a young eld!

I don't think there has been a time since Lucky Bill took over England that, overall, English writers hav shunn'd Latinates. A few hav, but they were the smaller groop. I read lots of stuff from ME onward and there is no lack of latinates! While many inkhorn words fell by the wayside, many didn't and sometimes the lesser known ones still pop up ... like succor. What an ugly little word! lol

"Wan is a fore-fast as in wanhope."

Yes, it can be, too.

E. wan is also akin to E. wane, G. Wahn (see Wahnsinn) and wenig. The forefasts in Icelandic, Swedish, and Danish are also the same as in English.

E. wanhope is the same as the Dutch wanhoop "despair."

E. wantrust = Dutch wantroost "distrust."

E. wanweird -> "misfortune."

E. wanton -> 'undisciplined," "unruly," "reckless," "unrestrained," among other manifold meanings.

A wonderful forefast to bring back along side 'un-.'

Oops....

Fr. -ir < L. -īre "action-word ending"

Fr. -ment < L. -mentum (< L. -menta) "an outcome of the verb being done"

""uppityness " : to me "uppity" suggests someone is unbiddable, wayward, or unwilling to take overlordship. I see the meaning "snobby" in the wordbook but I've never heard it."

'Uppity' meaning 'snobby' is said often in the States about folks that are "pretentious" and "arrogant."

I laugh every time someone starts talking about "collocations" in English; these folks somehow boldly hint that these things are fastly fixed. They are downright aghast! Indeed they seem threatened.

Why can't these "collocations" shift or switch back to being made up of Ænglish words? Is there an abiding, ironclad law standing in the way? Nope.

In my mind, the word "collocation" itself can be done away with. It is so silly to speak and write words that have altogether great words found in its first true wordstock.

Let's look at the root of "collocation", and what its bits mean:

collocation < L. collocātiōnem < collocāre < collocō [< co(m)- "together, with" + locō "put, set"]

Meaning > "a grouping together of things in a certain order, as of the words in a sentence"

The word is rather new brooked this way in the learning of tongues.

So, collocation, in true English, means "words set together in a fixed rank, row, or group."

Indeed there is a way to say this with English words, right? Anyone have thoughts about this?

What I meant to write was >>>>

It is so silly to speak and write fremd words in English, when English has altogether great words found in its first true wordstock.

@jayles, @Anwulf > "There is a seld-seen noting of shill (or shil) … OE scylian (= ie) only in sc. of mâle - to pay off, discharge, Chronicles 1049. ['shill'] … She shilled the bill."

Eádwerd cing scylode ix scypa of mále and hí fóron mid scypon mid eallon anweg. [King Edward put nine ships out of commission, and they went away ships and all, Chr. 1049; Erl. 174, 38.]

scilian (it seems rarely scylian) < see ON skilja "to understand; to split; to set asunder" < PGmc *skilōnan, *skiljanan; see also OE *scile and ON skil "otherness, insight, understanding"

That said what about --> "She shelled out for lunch." [ 'to shell out' is a working-byword (verbal phrase)]

Good by me!

Seemingly Forgotten English Words

Dree /drē/, Dreich /driːx/, Dreigh/Dreegh - "to go through something burdensome or hurtful"; "to endure, suffer, put up with, undergo"; "long, extended, great”; "wearisome; tiresome, bleak, dreary"; "to be able to do, go on"

I hav a long list of "obsolete" words that I'm working thru, like:

Whist, adj. - silent.

When all were whist, king Edward thus bespoke.
Hail Windsore where I some times tooke delight
To hawke and hunt, and backe the proudest horse.
- Peeles Honor of the Garter, 1593.

Keepe the whisht, and thou shalt heare it the sooner.
_Terence in English, 1641.

Wishness, adj. - melancholy
Witeword - a covenant
Withnay - to deny ; to resist

@Ængelfolc: Collocations (or "set wordstrings") are noteworthy when learning or teaching English: one needs to know the wonted string before straying therefrom. (Likewise in German, one needs to know "eine Entsscheidung" + "treffen" [rather than +machen] before going further). Awareness of set wordstrings is just a teaching tool. Nothing to stop you stepping outside the box though, if you know what you are doing.

I liked the "wan" words.

“Hope had grown grey hairs,
Hope had mourning on,
Trenched with tears, carved with cares,
Hope was twelve hours gone.”
(GMHopkins)
Teacher's mark: Quite well done but should have "stounds" instead of hours
Must try harder ! B-

@AnWulf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambton_Worm

Chorus
Whisht! lads, haad yor gobs, (=Be quiet, boys, shut your mouths)
An' aa'll tell ye aall an aaful story, (=I'll tell you all an awful)
Whisht! lads, haad yor gobs,
An' Aa'll tel ye 'boot the worm.

I heard this sung off the cuff by the Newcastle lads in about 1960.
Hardly understood a word......

Which brings us to the following:
1) There are words like "asset" and "item" which though having roots in Latin/French, have not just been borrowed straighforwardly; are more akin to new mintage. We cannot baldly root out all latinate words willy-nilly; and not allow that English had no growth of itself from 1066 onwards. If these are truely needed borrowings then they are no better or worse than other borrowings like "potato", "tomato", "bazaar" and so on.
2) If English borrowed 600 or so words from Latin before 1066 (like shrive, offer and so on), then why must we toss out all and every Latinate borrowing after 1066? Forsooth, we should allow everyday borrowings at the same rate after 1066, not those unwillingly stamped upon English by the overlords or academics, but those which filled a gap, where there is no straightforward ME word of the same meaning, or where the ME word has now died utterly. For instance "debit" and "credit".
3) This still leaves words like "liabilities" (in the bookkeeping meaning), which are more technical in meaning and hard to instead. ("Beholdens" ??)

@jayles:

1) Indeed you are right. I am with you here. There are good words for 'asset' and 'item' in English, too, in almost all settings. In today's English, an 'asset' (< L. meaning "having enough to redeem money owed") is "anything that has worth" nowadays. How about E. boon (< ON bόn)? An 'item' (L. adv. meaning "also, moreover, likewise; n. the same") is now mainly said to mean any "thing." So, why not say "thing?"

2) Here again, overall, I am with you. There is no need, or want, to throw out all of the Anglo-Norman-French, if they fill a need or gap in the English wordstock. The thing is most of them did not. A 'debit' (< L. dēbitum "something owed") is an 'outlay' or an 'owing' in English. A bookkeeper (accountant) would book the outlay on the left-hand side of the ledger(-book). Credit (< L. crēditum) can be written in English with "loan," "trustworthiness," "to esteem," among others. A bookkeeper would book this income on the right-hand side of the ledger(-book).

3) Liabilities (Financial) = Monies (or Moneys) owed; Liable = law-bound; lay oneself open to. Good English words that might well stand in >> owing(s) or money/business burden(s)?

@jayles "collocations"

Yes, I get that. I only meant that the word itself is ink-horn, and not needed. I acknowledge that this is a great learning tool.

Oddly enough....

Germanic folks said PGmc.*wreitan (Funnily whence G. reißen) to talk about Germanic writing (namely scratching out runes) and PGmc.*skrīban(an) [< L. scrībere) to talk about the Roman way of writing - "to dig or make marks with a stick (aka L. stylus).

Another good old word from about that same time is E. seine (drag-net) < OE segne < West Germanic *sagina < L. sagēna < Grk. sagḗnē "fishing net."

Chapman is another < OE cēapman (OE cēap "buying"; see E. cheap) < West Germanic *kaup- < PGmc. *kaupoz- < likely borrowed from L. caupō "inn-/shopkeeper, tradesman; akin to Dutch koopman, German Kaufmann

What's more, we have E. Kaiser < Austro-Bavarian Kaiser < MHG/OHG Keiser (OE-W.Sax. Cāsere, ON Keisari) < L. Cæsar. This word is said to be the oldest, and maybe the first, borrowing from Latin.

To name a few... ;-) Those seem to be good and right borrowings to me.Borrowings from about years 100-1066 (a small few after 1066) are mostly good with me. These words gave new things, thoughts and understandings, not know to Germanic folks at the time, names. As I said before, the loans/borrowings, at that time, were taken in rather willingly and freely.

@Ængelfolc Good. I was indeed a Kostbuchhalter for several years myself in my early life. I'm afraid not all debits are outlays; they may be assets or debts owing to the firm.
I found "Soll und Haben" quite hard to instead; "leftside and rightside" seem as good as any, but while that's all right between you and me it won't wash in the real world. "Holdings" is the best word for assets, though it may easily be muddled with a holding company. "boon" is from O Fr niet wahr? "Thing" marks a "chose in possesion", but assets also inholds "choses in action" - that is paper assets like debentures. The other thing is liabilities aren't always owing - they may be but a foresight (provision) for a lessening in worth, a writedown, or (as in the insurance world) a reckoning of what might need to be paid out in the to-come. That's how I got to 'beholdens' to benote an obligation or some sort.
Mightily beholden unto you

Why is that so many times, huru those Teutonic words that come thru French, the forefast a- or in- is always given as Latin? In OE, these were both Teutonic forefasts ... Why not in Frankish as well?

For byspel ... array from the Oxford Online: Old French arei (noun), areer (verb), based on Latin ad- ‘toward’ + a Germanic base meaning ‘prepare’.

Why is this not Frankish a-? Liken English ashore a- (to, towards) + shore.

a- 2 |eɪ-|
prefix
to; toward: aside | ashore.
• in a specified state or manner: asleep | aloud.
• in the process of (an activity): a-hunting.
• on: afoot.
• in: nowadays.
ORIGIN Old English, unstressed form of on.

@jayles:

1) "while that's all right between you and me it won't wash in the real world." > Warum?

2) " "boon" is from O Fr niet wahr?" > Nein. Old Norse. Ich schrieb den Ursprung des Wortes neben dem Wort.

++ E. BOON (n.) < ME boon/ bon(e)/ben(e) < Old Norse bόn "prayer, bid for help" (akin to OE bēn "prayer, bid for help"; see also Gmc. ban(nan) "to summon") < UrGmc. *boniz "prayer, bid/ask for help"

You are thinking of boon (adj.) "good" < O.Fr bon "good" (as in bon apétit) The meaning of the word "liabilities," it seems to me, is taken more broadly. There is a word for each of the things you wrote. Take "a foresight (provision) for a lessening in worth." That's a writedown (as you wrote) or a markdown. Each setting you talk about above is an "owing" or a lessening in worth of something. All of your byspells give up worth at sundered times, but they give up worth nonetheless.

4) "I'm afraid not all debits are outlays" > How so? All "debits" mean money owed to someone or some business, right? How can any holding of worth ("asset") be a 'debit'?

@AnWulf "Why is that so many times, huru those Teutonic words that come thru French, the forefast a- or in- is always given as Latin?"

You know why. Egg-headed word-lorists would rather think that the forefast is Latin; they might be heedlessly scorning the Teutonic sway. Why would the "upper-crust" take from the "lower-crust", right? ;-) The sheer thought of it - all to dreadfully awful!

Unless it can be shown to come from Latin/French first, the best answer is to say that the Latin and the Frankish meshed together or bore on each other. If one was speaking Frankish, they might think it was Germanic. If one was a Latin-French speaker, they might think it was Latin. With "array," this match up seems to already have been in Germanic, which Latin borrowed and gave to the French. It so happened that Latin had a(d)-, which meant the same as Germanic ā-, hence the addling.

Array < ME arrayen < Anglo-French arayer < O.Fr are(y)er < V.L. *ar-redare < Frankish ā "to, toward"+ *reida "readiness, group"< UrGmc.*uz- "to, toward" + UrGmc.*raidaz/-iz, “ready” (see OE ārǣdan "to make ready" [ā- + ræde])

"Borrowings from about years 100-1066 (a small few after 1066) are mostly good with me."

After thinking it over a little more, borrowings that came in up through 1250-1300 are mostly alright with me. After 1300 though - yikes! Only a small few....borrowings were wantonly and thoughtlessly brought in beginning about then.

@Ængelfolc ... boon also means a favor or request as well as something is helpful or beneficial (OED).

I think I'v said this before. For aft-1066 latinates:
1. Is the word short? One or two syllable word fit right in with the way of English.
2. How far has it come from the true Latin meaning? There are many words ... like 'pay' from Latin 'pac' or pax' for peace that no Roman would acknow.
2. Is it found thruout the Teutonic tungs ... family.
3. Is there another short Anglo word that was bestedded?
4. Who struck the word? Electricity was struck by an Englishman! I wish that he had chose the Anglo word for amber insted of the Greek word but nonetheless, this is an "English" word as it was made by an Englishman who took a Greek word and then Latin'd it. That doesn't mean that I won't pick another Anglo word if it is better but I'm not as hard on scientific upsprings as I am on inkhorn words that were struck willy nilly.

In the Ancrene Wisse (c1200), we find many latinates that are gloss'd with Anglo words as the priest writes out the 'wissen" (guides, rules ... wisse (n.) guide, advisor, rule) for the ancorites! For byspel, the writer glosses 'temptation' with 'fondunge' (OE fandung).

Fetching words:

fet (also means to fetch) ... piece
Webster's 1913: Fet \Fet\, n. [Cf. feat, F. fait, and It. fett? slice, G. fetzen
rag, Icel. fat garment.]
A piece. [Obs.] --Dryton.

sprack - activ, lively, alert ... put forth by Barnes for note insted of "active". (From Old Norse sprækr 'lively', from Proto-Indo-European *sp(h)er(e)g- 'to strew, sprinkle')

@AnWulf "For aft-1066 latinates:...." I take on board the broad thrust of your standpoint.
There seems little point in tossing out words like "tax" and "term" (as in short-term,long-term). Much better to hone in on the horde of latinate borrowings that came later, like refer,prefer,infer, confer,suffer and their branch-words (derivatives) - referee, referral, reference. Trying to find stand-ins for these and all the -pose, -vert, -gress, -port words is task enough indeed.

@Ængelfolc: "1) "while that's all right between you and me it won't wash in the real world." > Warum?"
Als ich noch jung war (und Dinosauren die Erde herrschten),... in those days in England we used terms like "stock", "creditors", "debtors", "daybook". However English accounting textbooks were something out of the dark ages, so we all used the American ones - with "inventories", "accounts payable", "receivables", "journal", and of course the likes of KPMG, PWC, Deloittes use these terms all the time., so it's standard jargon now. One might get away with the older terms in an email, but not if one is writing payroll or general ledger software - it just would not be saleable.
This is what I meant by the "real" world.

4) "I'm afraid not all debits are outlays" > How so? All "debits" mean money owed to someone or some business, right? How can any holding of worth ("asset") be a 'debit'?
On the balance sheet (or "Statement of Assets and Liabilities", assets are on the leftside (debits) liabilities on the rightside (credits). Accounting can be as maddeningly mysterious as English!

BTW inside the software, same-meaning words can be useful. But "wageslip" need a joining-mark or it reads as "wages-lip" not wage-slip!

@Jayles - 'term' is likely ok. Even overlookt by the OED and others, there is OE termen, es; m — A term, fixed date

Sometimes yu come full circul (OE circul from Latin circulum) … infer: from Latin inferre ‘bring in, bring about’ (in medieval Latin‘deduce’), from in- ‘into’ + ferre ‘bring’.

To make the same word from OE then in + fer (the root of ferian - to carry, convey, bring ['ferry']) which would giv "infer". So yu'd come up with the same word!

It's late and I'm truly tire'd, but for 'suffer' as to endure; there is 'thole' and 'dree'.

A referee or umpire would be a 'daysman'.
Prefer would be to 'forebear' (not forbear') ... That pesky for-, fore-.

I'd hav to how your noting the others to get a feel for the meaning so that I could find another word. It's seldom that you get a 'one bigness (size) fits all' word swap.

@AnWulf:

On After 1066 Latin Words:

1. Right on!
2. What do you mean here?
3. I think this is a great one - if it was taken in by many Germanic tongues, then there must be something to it being borrowed.
4. This is most meaningful - English words taken out of the tongue should be brought back into the fold.
5. This is one that is tricky, and I think you've lost me on this one. Most, if not all, of the ink-horn words were founded by Englishmen!

The Ancrene Wisse is most enthralling. I'll have to give it a read. Thanks!

@jayles: "There seems little point in tossing out words like "tax" and "term" (as in short-term,long-term)."

Well, I am with you about the word "tax" - that was a thought brought to the Germanics folks by the Romans, much like building houses and streets out of stone, wine-growing, and pepper. My least-loved of these is "tax." Although I wish it were called "tithe," and meant as such; giving one-tenth to any Body should be the utmost edge! :-)

Short-/Long-Term are okay Germanic-Latin words, but what about:

"Long-Term" >> unending, lasting, longstanding, abiding, long-time.

"Short-Term" >> stopgap, makeshift, short-time, fleeting.

@Ængelfolc in the gelt-world 'short-term' is wont to mean less than a year; and 'long-term' to mean over five years. However in accounting 'current liablities' may also include stock such as spare parts which might not be used up within one year; it is jargon with a technical meaning from cross-border accounting standards. Google "IAS 1" for all the bollocks like:
"Current liabilities are those expected to be settled within the entity's normal operating cycle or due within 12 months, or those held for trading, or those for which the entity does not have an unconditional right to defer payment beyond 12 months."
So it makes it tricky to change the terminology.....

@AnWulf I thought 'fer' (ferro/ferre) was related to 'bear' in English and 'fare' to 'fahren' in German?
"I'd hav to how your noting the others to get a feel for the meaning so that I could find another word." -> no it's okay; it's just that in teaching English as a second tongue there comes a time towards the upper standards when it may be helpful to deal with the meaning of latin roots, latin forefasts, and latin afterfasts, just so that learners have some hooks to hang the wordstock on in their minds. So for instance one may begin with 'port' or 'pose' or 'cede' and go thru all the same-rooted words to build patterns. To me this is the bane of teaching English - when one ends up indeed teaching latin instead!

@jayles: You are right!

infer = in + L. ferō “bear, carry; suffer” < Ur.In.Eu *bʰer- “to bear, carry” > Ur.Gmc *beraną/*barōną "bring forth, to bear, to carry" (whence OE beran, ON bera, Gothic baíran) > ME beren > E. bear

Also akin to Russian беременная (berémennaya) “pregnant” and L. ferre (see L. ferō )

OE ferian "to take somewhere, to ferry, to carry, to bear" > ME ferien > E. ferry

They all have the same Ur.In.Eu root *per-, *por- "to go, to carry, to go forth, forwards" [Ur.Gmc. *farō, *fer], that's why it is a bit addled. So, Old English could've yielded it, too.

@Ængelfolc ... I thought that you might find this fetching. It's a slideshow put in a PDF file: http://vennemann.userweb.mwn.de/Vennemann_2005_07_13.pdf from a talk: rtsp://stream.lrz-muenchen.de/lmu/LingKoll_2005_07_13.mp4 about a mightlic semitic link to some Germanic/Ur-Germanic words.
It's all guesswork but then what isn't when dealing with such deep roots?

@Jayles ... I don't know if it would help to teach that -fer latinates can also be thought of as the same light as the word for ferry.

Ferian was a well noted verb in OE. (Ger. führen, Dan. føre: Swed. föra: Icel. ferja to transport)
ferian, ferigan, ferigean, fergan; to ferianne; p. ode, ede; pp. od, ed [fer = fær a journey]. I. to carry, convey, bear, lead, conduct;

As was faren (fare ... Ger. fahren, faren)
FARAN, to farenne; ic fare, ðú farest, færest, færst, færsþ, he fareþ, færeþ, færþ, pl. faraþ; p. fór, pl. fóron; pp. faren, A word expressing every kind of going from one place to another, hence I. to go, proceed, travel, march, sail

Infer (from Latin in+fer ... to bring in) means "deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements: [ with clause ] : from these facts we can infer that crime has been increasing." ... From the thesaurus (Anglo words): gather, understand, take it; read between the lines; informal reckon.

Most ink-horn words were either taken in or put together by Englishmen, true enuff. However, most were done so willy-nilly with the ettle (purpose, intent) of bringing in more latinates ... no other true reasum. Scientific words like electricity (1600 - William Gilbert) were done so with forethought to fill a nook. It was built on the Greek word for amber ( ήλεκτρο (ilektro)). He could hav chosen the Anglo word: glær. But he didn't.

And let's not forget all the French words (most latinates) brought in by Charles and his ilk after the "Restoration". ... They had been living in France during the years of exile.

Another fetching word I saw yestern ... riff ... upspring unknown ... might be from 'refrain' but more like a back-shaping from riffle.

Here is the passage: ... a brilliant sci-fi '''riff''' on what happens after the end of privacy nearly ruins everything.

Riff
Synonyms
interpretation, take, variation

Related Words
version; adaptation, translation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riff

https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ List_of_Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English

So just how can everyone recall which are ok and which not when they all look latinate?

@jayles:

What do you mean "they all look latinate?"

"Electric(-ity)"

Funny enough, G. Bernstein "amber" [G. der Schwefel "sulfur"] and ON brennusteinn "amber" [Icelandic brennisteinn "sulfur"] share the same root as OE brynstān "sulfur" [E. brimstone].

Almost looks like 'electric' might've been misnamed. 'Electricity' doesn't have a yellowish-reddish-brown hue to me at all. I wonder what William Gilbert was thinking or truly saw.

In Old English, there were two words for 'amber' stuff: eolhsand "amber, electrum" [maybe also "gold and silver alloy"] and glær "amber resin" .

Some word-lorists have put forth that the 'eolh-' was a way for the Germanic folk to say the Greek ēlektrōn, with 'sand' on the end because that is where amber is found. So, 'ēlek' (which the Germans may have heard Gmc. 'eolh,' meaning "elk," and dropped the unknown ending (to them) '-tron' + Gmc. sand (where amber is found - in the sand) -> ēleksand -> eolhsand.

The go further and say that the knowledge of 'amber' (and hence the word) came to Germanic through the Greeks Bronze Age trading on the West coast of Jutland [in which the Celts played 'middleman' for the Greeks*]. I think in Ur-Germanic there was also 'glesum' said for amber.

* Hyperboreans: Myth and History in Celtic-Hellenic Contacts (2004) by Timothy P. Bridgman

In German, we say 'der Strom' [E. stream], but also have borrowed 'die Elektrizität'.

@Ængelfolc ... Here's another one for your etym skills. Here is one that has bother'd me for a long time … and I still don't know what to make of it, but I still play with it from time to time.

OE acofrian; p. ode; pp. od To recover; convalesce: -- Wunda opene raþe ácofriað (exalanf), belocene þearle wundiað
[Uorto acoueren his heale, A. R. 364. O. H. Ger. ar-koborōn.]

… swap v for f and you hav 'acover' (ME acoveren, acouren [OE cofrian, corresp. to OHG ir-koborn]) … so some shape of 'cover' is seen in OE and hints at a *cofrian … or is the OHG from a PGmc, from the PIE and thus has nothing to do with the French/Latin? I don't know. … Or the OF 'covir' is from a Frankish word (rather than Latin) from the PGmc or a blend of Frankish and Latin?

Recover is found in AN French with the same meaning as 'acover'. Is 'recover' truly from Latin recuperare or from the OE 'acover' with the re- insted of a-? I think the latter.

Oops I meant this list:
wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Latinates_of_Germanic_origin

Amber wasn't chosen as the root for electricity for its color but for its properties ... You rub amber and you get static electricity. Amber in Latin is electrum (from Greek, ήλεκτρο (ilektro)). From that, Gilbert then made the Latin word electricus, whence electric, whence electricity.

We often call it 'power' or 'current' ... both Latinates. Sometimes one might say the 'light bill' insted of the 'electric bill'. (In Spanish, informally it's call 'luz' (light) insted of electricidad.)

He could hav chose glær and latin it ... glaeric or with a more OE ending, glaerlic, that would hav lookt latinish.

"Amber wasn't chosen as the root for electricity for its color but for its properties ... You rub amber and you get static electricity."

Right. I learned that in grade school, but it still seems odd to call it "amber" in Greek/Latin, unless the word means something like, "energy made by rubbing amber and cloth together." I guess no odder than Germanic folk calling it "burn-stone" since it will burn when heated.

"The Greek name for amber was ἤλεκτρον (elektron), "formed by the sun", and it was connected to the sun god (Helios), one of whose titles was Elector or the Awakener."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber (*Wikipedia Source: King, Rev. C.W. (1867). The Natural History of Gems or Decorative Stones. Cambridge (UK). p. 315.)

Enthralling reading here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sources_of_Standard_English/Chapter_IV_-_The_Inroad_of_French_Words_into_England

Acover is not the same as OF couvrir "to cover something". It is akin to 'recuperate.' Grimm does write that OHG irkoborōn is from L. recuperare [pg. 1235, "Deutsche Grammatik, Volume 4" (1896) by Jacob Grimm

ME acover

@jayles ... You might find this list a little handier, only be aware that there are a few small mistakes (like he has some in left column that hav Teutonic roots): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Asarla%C3%AD/Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English

@Ængelfolc ... Good link to the book. I'm going to read the whole thing later. He also wonders about the acofrian/recover link. Good to know that I'm not alone on that one!

He made me wonder about cemp/camp ... When one looks up camp, it says that German Kampf and OE cemp(a) come from ur-Germanic which they then say got it from Latin (campus) ... from the PIE root of *kemp ... Whoa ... if that is the PIE root, then I see no reasum why it didn't the ur-Gm didn't come from the PIE rather than thru Latin. Heck, if one borrow'd from the other then my guess is that Latin borrow'd it ... But I think the better way is to say that they both came from the PIE root.

Furthermore, I'll take a bold step forward and guess that the French champion is as much rooted, if not wholly rooted, on a Frank shape of the PIE *kemp rather than only from Latin campus.

Looks like we can keep 'huge' ... I alway thought it might hav a Teutonic root:

From Middle English huge, from Old French ahuge (“high, lofty, great, large, huge”), from a hoge (“at height”), from a (“at, to”) + hoge (“a hill, height”), from Frankish *haug, *houg (“height, hill”) or Old Norse haugr (“hill”), both from Proto-Germanic *haugaz (“hill, mound”), from Proto-Indo-European *koukos (“hill, mound”). Akin to Old High German houg (“mound”) (whence German Hügel (“hill”)), Icelandic haugr (“mound”), Lithuanian kaukaras (“hill”), Old High German hōh (“high”) (whence German hoch), Old English hēah (“high”)

I found another OE word for "amber" -> eolcfang (abt. 1106).

There are many, many "Old Northern/Norman French" words that are of Norse or Frankish Ursprung. Most Francophone's would never give in to that truth.

Look at what are taken as "French" names like Aubert, Hugh, Louis, Henri, Robert, Roger, Reynard, Reynold (Renaud), Raymond, Charles, Lambert, Baudoin, Bélanger, Colbert, Hébert, Guillory, Monet, Thibault, Thiérry (Thiéry), and so on and so forth. They are all Germanic (mostly Frankish) names that were muddled owing to the way the French speak. There are too many to list here.

We need to be more withy in our thinking, to have more withiness in our mindset.
(been looking for a stand-in for flexible for some time)

For 'flexible, pliable', try "bendsome" ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bendsome

You can also note "bendy" for flexible ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bendy

I hav been putting together as many words from William Barnes as I can find. It's a long list! Some of the words are clumsy but others might work.

Here's one: skyedge for horizon

Good on you, Anwulf!

That's actually probably more effective than musing about 'likely' modern Old English words. Anglophones tend to have a finite nostalgic streak and that runs reaches just far enough to start trendily quoting and using words-of-yore - especially as Barnes is aweheld/revered... however, trying to get them to think that bit more out of the box and resurrect Old English words is like trying to get them to eat horse meat - agonised faces and repulsion. A funny lot are Englishtonglers :)

@Jayles ... You're always wondering about those Latinates in OE ... Here is a qwick and ruff list: http://anwulf.blogspot.com/2013/05/old-english-latinates.html

Since the net is down at my house (I'm in town right now), I'v been reading: "A Biographical History of English Literature" ... from 1873 I think (there's no date on the title page).

A few qwotes:

The Norman monks looked upon English books ("Anglo- Saxon MSS.") as "old and useless," and cleaned the writing off the parchment with pumice stone, and then used it for their own documents. … A Biographical History of English Literature, p18

Nay; so far did the Normans carry their oppression, that little boys at school were obliged to translate their Latin into French, and the mother tongue was banished from the schoolroom. p26

And it is a fact worthy of special — notice that between 1350 and 1485 the English language had changed so much that the old version of John de Trevisa was almost unintelligible. … In fact, the vocabulary of the English language was changing; it was becoming extremely Latinised, and the genuine English words of Trevisa were falling into forgetfulness. Mr.Marsh mentions that Caxton's "Game of the Chesse", contains three times as many French words as the "Morte d'Arthur" of Sir Thomas Malory.

That the sixteenth century was the time of pedantio quotation, many books being crammed with Latin quotations, often more numerous than the original matter. p93

But from the beginning of the sixteenth to the middle of the seventeenth centuries, "it is probable," says Mr. Wright, "that the great mass of the reading public were as well acquainted with Latin as with their own mother tongue." And, within the same period, *** it came to be the fashion to use Latin words in an English shape*** to an enormous extent. It was extremely easy to do this. A writer had only to take the root of a Latin word, and give an English ending and a slightly English look, and the thing was done. p117

Sir Thomas Browne ..., " We shall, within a few years, be fain ***to learn Latin to understand English***, and a work will prove of equal facility in either." p118

This use, then, of Latin words had got, not only into written, but into spoken, language; it had made its way into the Court, into the bar, and into the pulpit. It was ***practised and was understood by every one who had the slightest claim to education***. Spenser lived in the midst of all this; and, as himself a learned man and a courtier, he could not have resisted its influence. And thus Spenser could not help using Latin expressions ***where English would have done equally well***. p119

... a " Person of Quality " in the last century finds it necessary, on the contrary, to rid him of his " Saxon dialect ;" p120

And so that you'll know that the writer wasn't a Saxonist:

It will also be plain to the reader that all the poetry and prose, but more especially the poetry, of Englishmen down to the fourteenth century (with the single and brilliant exception of Laurence Minot, and he was of French origin) is dull, heavy, and only half articulate Their works read like the feeble and clumsy efforts of half-educated country people to express their thoughts. The Norman-French leaven was needed to raise them out of their infantile condition, and to produce the free and powerful speech of a Chaucer. p37

And Johnson (or wordbook gefrain) said in a foreword to his wordbook, somewhat ironically given that he was writing in a latinate hevy way:

… let them, … endeavour, with all their influence, to stop the licence of translators, whose idleness and ignorance, ***if it be suffered to proceed, will reduce us to babble a dialect of France***.

Again, Anwulf, I find myself somewhat bedazzled by your skill at plucking out meaningful and sibly chunks of writing :)

Has anyone read this foreword on the OED site, as to the grounds for which Old English words are inbodied and which left out?

http://public.oed.com/aspects-of-english/english-in-time/old-english-in-the-oed/

Should You Angle for Anglo-Saxon, or Enlighten with Latin?
by Mark Nichol

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/should-you-angle-for-anglo-saxon-or-enlighten-with-latin/

"...the mother tongue was banished from the schoolroom." Isn't this what most "Anglishers" or folks that want less borrowings in English truly are striving against - the loss of first English wordstock? Indeed there may be some that are driven by an over-the-top, waspish nationalism. The greater of them I think want to win back the words and meanings that have been seemingly lost, and keep the ones that are still in English, even though they been rare in speech and writing.

Can English be called English without its first wordstock? The name Frenc(i)sc became French, which only has 10-15% Frankish wordstock, so maybe English should be called something else since it is so full of fremd borrowings as "Academia" would have us believe? English to me means the Germanic tongue, the folks in England, and the West Germanic folks from N Germany/ S Denmark who invaded and settled large parts of E and N England beginning about the year 410.

Let's see...how about something Latin-ish? Folks that think the overmuch borrowing is needed to make the tongue "richer", their tongue can be called Anglicē (i.e. Globalish, "Modern English"). Afterall, if it is so Latinized, it is not true English, and therefore should have a Latin name, right?

"...the poetry, of Englishmen down to the fourteenth century (with the single and brilliant exception of Laurence Minot, and he was of French origin) is dull, heavy, and only half articulate Their works read like the feeble and clumsy efforts of half-educated country people to express their thoughts. The Norman-French leaven was needed to raise them out of their infantile condition, and to produce the free and powerful speech of a Chaucer. p37"

Wow! This struck me hard as being everything that "Anglishers" are branded for, but they are on the other side; they are internationalists/globalists. This is the height of aloof, self-righteous, smug narrow-minded gall (OE g(e)alla). But, what else should we await from these kinds of folks that are against the keeping and quickening of Ænglisc? What a bunch of bigoted humbugging-quacks!

@jayles: "been looking for a stand-in for flexible for some time"

Flexible: lithe(some), lissome, limber, willowy, bending, yielding, nimble, spry (E. sprack & Swed. sprygg

@Ængelfolc: Thanks. The words you list are fine for true-to-life meanings; I was thinking more of "flexible working hours" or "The boss is very inflexible when it comes to pay rises", where the meaning is carried over to another realm, (like 'flexibel').
On another point, there are two types of yoga teachers: those who say "inhable/exhale" and those who "breathe in/out". The ask is why do they choose one over the other? Sometimes I think is is easier to stress that first wordlimb 'in' or 'ex' so the instruction is clear. Sometimes I think it is just unawaremess and booklearning.
Nobody uses 'hale' instead of 'breath'.

@jayles ... How about, "open working hours". The boss is unbending/set/unyielding/hard/stubborn when it comes to pay raises".

@Gallitrot

I know that I keep beating this drum, but the OED's stand on Old English is only an outgrowth of the slant for Latin and French. While I understand why the OED stops at ME for words that it puts into its unshortend wordbook (I don't yeasay it but I understand it), it has led to bad etyms for many, many words.

One must keep in mind, that these etyms hav been done over many years by many folks. All these folks hav been steept in Latin and French but it is eathseen that only a few hav had a good knowledg of OE. This has led to unsteddiness when it comes to etyms. For byspel, dot is from OE dott … dott is found only once in OE yet OE gets the mark for the etym but OE scrutnung (scrutiny) is overlookt even tho we say ˈskro͞otn-ē rather than scru-ti-nee … and OE has scrudnere/scrutnere … a scrutineer.

Service is markt as first showing up in OE … but I can only find it as part of a kenning 'syrfe-treow' – serv(ice)-tree (the OE word for a sorbus). That's ok but then 'cover' is overlookt in Coferflod (Cover-water, the OE name for the Sea of Galilee). It misses many Latinates that first show up in OE and insted puts them down as ME (often thru French).

Often the OED can't hold back from needlessly kowtowing to French. For byspel, false "from OE fals … from Latin falsum … reinforced or re-formed in Middle English from Old French fals …". Now tell me why it was "re-formed" from OF fals rather from OE fals?

Many words are likely, at worst, a blend of OE and either OF or Latin words but nothing is said of any likely OE root. Tally - from Anglo-Norman French tallie, from Latin talea ‘twig, cutting’. What about OE tælian, talian - to count, calculate, reckon, account, consider, think, esteem, value, impute?

And what of the root of the A-N tallie? Is it truly from Latin talea? Is there not a Frankish word along the lines of OFrs. talia? The lack of knowledg of Frankish words and the sheer dearth of known Frankish words greatly hinders the kenseek (research).

Then there words like 'chine' [1]: "from Old French eschine, based on a blend of Latin spina ‘spine’ and a Germanic word meaning ‘narrow piece’, related to shin." … Shin itself is "related to German Schiene ‘thin plate’ and Dutch scheen." Sooo … it seems that 'eschine' truly a Teutonish word that inholds the meaning of the Latin spina. But the true frain is whether or not that meaning came from spina or was alreddy inheld in Frankish word. Liken OE cinu (whence chine [2]) meaning a 'cleft, chink'. Is not a backbone a string of 'clefts' in the back? So now we come full ring … is chine [1] truly from OF eschine or only another meaning from OE cinu? If one is steept in OE, one might say the latter … if one doesn't know OE but knows Latin and French, one might say the former … and thus the conundrum we hav with many words.

Withal there were the "spelling reforms" of the 16th hundyear. Secure is nothing more than the switch to a more Latin spelling of OE sicor (from Latin securus) found in ME also as sikur, yet the OED says nothing of the OE or ME words and only dates it back to the mid 16th hundyear.

Here's one that I found only the other night: 'superhumeral' ... Scrýde bine mid superhumerale and mid alban and stolan and handline and planétan, þ is godwebben cappe, MS. Land 482, f. 48 a.

So now we see the forefast super- show'd up in OE on a Latinate that was thrown in as if others would know what a superhumeral is (over the shoulder vestment).

We hav OE 'pihment' from Latin pigment but the OED says ME not OE (and note the -ment afterfast).

Then there is OE weoþ-mynd ... ME worthmint ... -mint is not a misspelling of Latin -ment!

@Jayles ... I'v stumble'd over an answer to frain you put a long time ago ... another word for "person". It's Brit slang but it works most of the time: bod http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bod?q=bod

@AnWulf Ah "bod" - a word from my childhood: not really a word I would use in print unless in the wordstring "an odd bod", but wellworth mulling over.
Re your remarks about the OED, I must say that English wordroots are quite muddled and muddling - more Latin in OE than at first sight, more Frankish in French-rooted words, more early Latin borrowings into German. I really think the bod-in-the-street will never know the sundriness of it all, nor know which to choose.
Again, if there were Latinate borrowings into OE before 1066, then one would have to allow some borrowings in the following yearhundreds as an everyday happening where tongues are brushing shoulders so to speak.
Thirdly, our gripe is more about the unneeded academic doublers like mortal,lethal,fatal instead of deadly; so there is no need to uproot short French borrowings like "joy" and try to bring back "frothe", which is no shorter nor in today's world less English.
Out of all this, I would put forward a deem-standard grounded much more on what sounds snobby or academic in today's English, rather than grounded on word-roots.
For instance, the French/Latin birthing of "agree" is scarcely noticeable to a French bod today, so why not just take it in as English, be it a natural or forced borrowing or not. Whilst wordroots may hold you and I in thrall, they and their ilk are of little use to everyday folk.
And lastly there is the slow death of English dialect words afoot today, and I wonder what can or should be done about it, if anything. I do fear that in the end we shall all have the vocabulary of Rambo. The other noteworthy thing is that in England at the last tally there were over three hundred primary schools where not one child had English as their mother tongue. What this bodes for English to-come I dread to think.
:)

@jayles ... I truly don't hav a problem with most short Latinates. I haven't found a word that I like better than "prey" when talking the hunted in a dark way. A good for "joy" tho might be win, wyn as in winsome (OE wynsum 'joy' + 'sum').

I'm trying to update my blog on OE Latinates now ... for some unknown reasum, it won't take. Every time I think I'm about done with it, I find more which is not amazing since many of the learnd folks back then were also the clergy who would would hav been steept in Latin.

As for after 1066 borrowings, I think one can see where many came in from the "brushings" so to speak and where many were jammd down. One thing that I do is to see if the word is found in other Teut. tungs. Family is pretty widespred thruout the Teut tungs so I thing that is a fair one tho often it can be workt around ... speaking of round, I'm trying to put the last touches on a blog where I put forth my thoughts on why "round" has a Teut root rather than a Latin one. I'm still beset with net hitches ... My afforder (provider) now says, since swapping in new gear on their end, that I'm out of range? How can I be out of range now when I wasn't before?

As for dialects, yes ... I was looking thru an old wordbook on dialects "A Glossary of North Country Words" (John George) last night and found many fetching words ... hain ... to save, preserve, spare, set aside ... listed as dial Eng. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hain (warning, it seems this isn't wontedly in their free wordbook but it was online today). The writer also says about "cute": cute - quick, intelligent, sly, cunning, clever. Generally thought to be an abbreviation of acute; but, in all probability, direct from OE cuth, expert … p89, Cute [looking over the meaning of cuth in OE, I think he's right].

I'll leav you with another Britishism that fills a gap. I'v been looking for a good word for "corrupt". There is wemm'd (stain'd) but that is unknown and needs a gloss. The other night I was watching "Casino Royal" (James Bond) and in the opening scene, the guy tells Bond, "If M thought I was bent, she'd sent a double-O." Right enuff, we find in the OED: 2 British informal dishonest; corrupt:
a bent cop http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bent?q=bent If it is good enuff for Bond, it is good enuff for me!

@jayles ... I saw this today: Showing Joy Without French http://spare-the-english-tongue.tumblr.com/post/58011764676/showing-joy-without-french-asf

Of far more noteworthiness is the on-going latinization of English; take a look at this:-
http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=unseemly%2Cinappropriate%2Cunbecoming%2Cunbefitting&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=

or try comparing unseemly, unbecoming, and inappropriate on books.google.com/ngrams

Well, well, seems someone blocked me from commenting for whatever doltish grounds!

Onefoldly wanted to say @Jayles it's always an upset to see needless Latinish usage when there are a manifold of OE words ready and waiting to fit better and more tightly to a written thought or feeling.

Always a happy happening when my email inbox rings and I see some sterling new bite of information about a wrongly listed OE word or, as I've mistrusted, a terrible bit of random etymology rathering a French provenance over an English wellspring.

@gallitrot2 Sometimes the system comes up with a message like "name already being used " ; the trick is to add an epithet as a separate word - the post is then accepted. That's why you may see "jayles the unwise" (like ethelred the unredy)

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

Somwhat more withy benchmarks and guidelines.

"During the 17th and 18th centuries, dictionary writers and grammarians generally felt
that English was an imperfect language whereas Latin was perfect. In order to improve
the language, they deliberately made up a lot of English words from Latin words. For
example, fraternity, from Latin fraternitas, was thought to be better than the native
English word brotherhood. "
is the above true?

I like both, but I would probably use brotherhood more than fraternity. This mainly because of my unfamiliarity with the word.

@Jayles ... Yes, more or less, it's true. It is also why grammarians tried to put Latin grammar rules onto English ... don't split the infinitiv; don't end a sentence with a preposition, and so forth. It was in this time that almost any learn'd bod knew Latin so writers would throw in either the Latin word itself (fraternitas) or a English'd take of the Latin word (fraternity). Sometimes when reading writing from that time, I hav to stop and go look up a Latin word that is thrown in like I should know it!

@AnWulf,

Yes, some of those silly rules are nothing but that. And people just accept it without asking why do we do it. I had a Creative Writing teacher in High School whom I was talking to about, if I remember exactly, parallelism for prepositional phrases that I had done in a Humanities Exam. I first said prepositions when I meant prepositional phrase. Then she responded with, more or less, "you can't 'strand' prepositions". I paused at that moment and thought about what she said, but shrugged it off.

As for the older authors, I would think that they would be writing for their audience, and most males, especially those of the higher echelons, knew Latin & Greek. I don't really mind stumbling on a new word, be it Anglo-Saxon, Latin, French, etc. Any word, so long as it serves a purpose, is welcome in my vocabulary, or wordstock.

I found "thole", the English version of "tolerate".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ulsterscots/words/thole

This might have given us:
"untholing" = intolerant or impatient
"patient" = tholer/tholing
??

@Jayles ... Yes, thole is a good one that I note. Dree is another one and is found in the phrase "dree one's weird".

@Jasper ... Yes, words come and go. One word that has thankfully fallen out which crops a lot in older writings is "succor" for help, aid. Yuck, what an ugly word. Sadly, we'v lost too many words that I think are pretty good.

Ængelfolc, if you're still out there I hav another odd one for your etym skills.

German trübe, adj., 'turbid, gloomy, dull, dim', from MidHG. truebe, adj. (truobe, adv.), OHG. truobi, adj., 'obscure, gloomy, dull' allied to trüben, 'to darken, tarnish, cast a gloom over', MidHG. trueben, OHG. truoben, 'to darken, sadden'. ... In the non-Teut. languages there are no certain cognates of the Teut. root drōb, 'to confuse'.
Trübsal, n., 'affliction,distress', from MidHG. trüebesal, OHG. truobisal; an abstract of trüben. — Kluge, p369

Then there is Trübel, m., 'confusion, trouble', Mod HG. only, from Fr. trouble.

I don't know the root of the Norwegian and Swedish words (trøbbel and trubbel). They may also be from the French or from the ur-Teut.

If there was a Frankish one, I would think that we'd find something near to it in Dutch but I haven't so far. By the same toke tho, I find nothing near the OF truble in Spanish either which makes me lean towards a Northern France/Frankish root. Old French truble seems nearer to the Teut. root than to Latin turbid in both meaning and lude (sound).

huswifely - (adj) capable; economical; prudent (adv) capably; economically; prudently. ... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/huswifely

huswife - (verb) to manage with frugality

Liken to "economics": Greek oikonomikos, from oikonomia. Originally a noun, based on oikos ‘house’ (cognate with Latin vicus "district", vicinus "near"; Old English wic "dwelling, village") + nemein ‘manage’, the word denoted household management or a person skilled in this, hence the early sense of the adjective (late 16th cent.) ‘relating to household management’.

I am seriously beginning to fall out with Etymonline - it links through to things such as dictionary.com and is beginning to become the authority on word history... not great... and by that, I mean poxy :(

@Gallitrot,

Etymonline takes a truly wary, chary way ... The writer isn't an etymologist himself, he only writes what can be found in other works. So, if you can find another upspring for a word ... then you can write him and send him the info. He often goes deeper than many and givs other tidbits that are often found. Even tho he is wary, and I may not hold with what he has, he has, nonetheless, done an amazing job.

But rather than whinge about other's works ... and there is lot to whinge about ... I'v started writing blogs call'd "Latin or Teutonish" where I lay what I know of a word and how etym of the word my go another way than most. Like Etymonline, I am not an etymologist. And I can only go by what I hav found free online (I don't hav a subscription to the OED) so there are gaps in what I know ...

Once you start reading sundry books on the etyms of words, you begin to acknow how much the writers don't truly know ... and can't truly know. They build witcrafty (logical) reasons rooted on sundry things such as when did the word first show up, the meaning, the sound, and does any sound chanj match the held philological chanj ... so on and so forth. Even with all that, it can be mighty murky with words.

And they're not steady with their analysis ... they don't always put the analysis in the same way to all words ... but then "they" is not one but many folks so while one might amazingly giv a word an Anglo-Teut. root; another, in the same kind of circumstance, will giv it a Latin root. Read some of Skeat's analyses. In the body of his work, he might giv a word a Teut. root but then chanj his mind in the addendum and giv it a Latin root. Sometimes his witcraft is spot on ... other times it is rambling and lacking ... but always fetching.

When about half of French is Anglo-Teutonish English, then they can whinge ... Look at the headline below ... It's mostly latinates.

Drop these ugly Anglicisms ASAP, urge French language police
Académie Française condemns use of abbreviation of as soon as possible, and adoption of score as a verb

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/08/anglicisms-asap-score-french-language-police

@AnWulf,

First, on Etymonline's giving of different roots might be because of cognates, which I am sure you are aware.

Second, because I have the compact version of the 20 volume set of the Oxford English Dictionary. This includes, from what I remember, quotations from various authors and some etymology, if you would like, you may ask me to look something up for you.

From your perspective, the Académie Française's condemnation must seem rather ironic to you, with so many Romantic words having been imported and incorporated into English.

@Jasper, yes the full OED has lots of quotes which help with the witt (sense) of how the word was being noted. They keep that behind their subscription firewall. Thanks for the offer ... and feel free to chime in with quotes from it when a word comes up here.

The guy at Etymonline is friendly. If you can show him some kind of reference, he'll look it over. He's not into gessing ... He follows the path blaze'd by others. He has a reference for every word that he has done. But in the end, he ... like others ... has to make a choice and makes that choice rooted on the references. So if most of the references say that X has a Latin root, that is what he puts.

As always, the further back one goes, the murkier it gets. Then, as you said, there are cognates and sometimes the cognates are so near to one another that it truly can be a eenie-meenie-mighty-moe pick as to whether the root is Latin or Teut. ... like OHG trahton (not a Latinate ... Kluge) and Latin tractus ... so from whence OE traht? I think it's Teut. but others say it was borrow'd from Latin. Fall (OE fallan, feallan) and falter are Teut. ... fail, fault are Latin from fallere. Those are near to each other that one could beget the same words. ... Who knew that OE and ME elend, elend 'foreign' and English 'else' hav the same PIE root *el 'beyond, other' as Latin alien and alias, alius? That's why I'v started blogging some of these.

I do what I can with others like the MED (Middle Eng. Dict.) which is fully online and is free ... as is B-T Anglo-Saxon. Lots of byspels in those two. The gap comes after ME til about 1800 ... There are lots of old books (free) in Google Books ... some seekful ... some not. Gutenburg and Archive.org are great but you hav to know which book you're looking for ... you can't do a word seek on their database (kenbit-stow?) ... However, once you know which book you want to look in, you can do an online word-seek. There are other spots to look ... BYU has an amazing gathering of writings that is online but there are scannos so one still must be careful. Even with all those, it's still often hard to find a word that is found in old wordbooks (huru wordbooks of old words and provincial words) to see how it might hav been noted.

As for the French ... and the Spanish hav a like academy ... well, they're having about as much luck as the gainsayers did against the inkhorn words. For now, it's English's time in the sun and the world is sucking up English words all over. I spend a lot of time in S. America. Only yestern, I saw a gal with a t-shirt at the pizza shop with a shirt that read "on (heart) the flight" ... I wasn't truly gewiss as to what it meant. I think it meant something like "on the love boat" but I see that often here ... they make shirts with English on them ... and often bad English! Many goods and wares here are in English ... I saw in the pet shop yestern a bottle with something for cows to ward off bugs label'd as "pour-on".

Sorry for the long post ... I got a little carry'd away!

One more thing ... and it's been brought up before. The OED often stops ... by its only policy ... at Middle English starting in the year 1150. Thus is misses that "peace" first came into English in Late OE in 1135. The word still wasn't needed as the OE had both frith and grith ... but the OED puts the word as coming into English in ME and not LOE.

peace – pais – peace [from Old French pais, from Latin pax, pac- ‘peace’] LOE: Pais he makede men and dær. … AS Chronicles, 1135

@AnWulf,

I will take you up that offer about providing quotations whenever possible. I checked Oxford's entry on peace, and the earliest date that I found was 1154. That fact about Oxford English Dictionaries disconcerts me because I was hoping that it would be very comprehensive, as it is Oxford. I am a little concerned that the dictionary lacks completeness and thoroughness because of some dearth of diligence on the lexicographers' part.

@Jasper, here is word that falls into that dead space between ME and the 1800s ... cash. The Oxford Dict. Online has two roots (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cash) ... both coming into English as the "late 16th century) ... I'd like to know if which shows up first in the OED ... that is, if one can tell clearly from the meanings. Thanks

Definition 1a of Substantive (noun): "A chest or box for money; a cash-box, till."
First appearance dated to 1598 and attributed to FLORIO and then in 1611 to COTGR. Googling Florio 1598 gives Giovanni Florio while searching for COTGR 1611 redirects to Cotgrave and gives the wikipedia page Randle Cotgrave. The selection of names is based off of the evidence found.

Adapted French [casse]: "a box, casse, chest, to carrie or keep wares in, also a Marchants cash or counter", Cotgrave.

Or its origin through Italian [cassa]:

"a chest,.. also, a merchants cashe or touner", Florio

Definition 1b: "A sum of money." Obs.

As for the second definition for the substantive with the first date of 1596:

"Money; in the form of a coin, ready money"
"a. Formerly in literary and general use; but now only commercial (see b), or consciously used as a sort of commercial slang"
"b. As a term of banking or commerce, used to signify, in its strictest sense, specie; also, less strictly, bank notes, which can at once be converted into specie, and are therefore taken as 'cash', in opposition to bills or other securities. Also in the phrases [these phrases are bold] hard cash, ready cash, cash in hand, cash on delivery: applied to the forwarding of goods to order, payment being made to the carrier or postman when the goods are delivered. Abbreviated C.O.D."

1596 Nashe Saffron Walden, 106[:] "He put his hand in his pocket but... not to pluck out anie cash." (Definition 2a.)

1599 Shaks. Hen. V, II. i. 120[:] "Nym. I shall haue my Noble? Pist. In cash, most iustly payd."

Although there is a discrepancy in Henry V, 120 is the stated line but when cross-referencing it with

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/characters/charlines.php?CharID=nym&WorkID=henry5

Perhaps, this is because the paper was larger than the ones used now.

Definition 2c dated 1614: "Minted coin, current coin." Obs.

1614 T. Adams Devil's Bang. 205[:] "To buy leaden trash, with golden cash."

Definition 2d dated 1651: "It is also the regular term for 'money' in Book-keeping. See cash account in 3."

1651 in Index Royalists (Index Soc.) 18[:] "The said treasures or their clerk of the cash."

2e. "Phrases. out of cash, in cash."

1593 Peele Edw. I (1830) 57[:] "Now the Friar is out of cash five nobles, God knows how he shall come into cash again."

2f. "cash down (Down adv. 12): ready money." orig. U.S.

[1722 P. Lloyd Let. 28 Jul in Maryland Hist. Soc. Publication (1804) XXXIV. 31[:] "A reserve was made of Almost all the Lands upon the Western shore, for the Value of £120 p^d downe."]

2g. cash and carry, a system whereby the purchaser pays the cash for goods and takes them away himself. Usu. attrib. Also elliot., a shop or supermarket operating on this system. spec. used with reference to purchases of arms from the U.S. in the period immediately before 1941. Also, cash and carry away. orig. U.S.

1917 Ladies' Home Jrnl. July 27/3, "I would recommend to every women that you follow the 'cash and carry' plan of buying in preference to the 'credit and delivery' plan."

1937 Ann. Reg. 1936 204[:] "The President should be given some measure of discretion to permit, say, the victims of aggression to buy, pay for, and transport at their own risk such supplies, not actually munitions of war, which they might need. This policy was described by its proponents as the 'cash and carry' policy."

With that, I'll end and give you some time to digest the material.

@AnWulf,

On rereading your question, I seem to have misinterpreted it the first time. But to iterate what was said in the previous post, the Italian word "cassa" predates French "casse". Sorry about that.

Thanks Jasper but the 2nd 'cash' that is on the link is from Tamil thru Portuguese ... A coin of low value from China, southern India, or SE Asia. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cash#cash-2 ... It also came into English in the late 1500s. Now that you'v shown me that the 'cash' ... supposedly from the French ... came in the tung in 1596 ... Well, that's pretty late!

So now the frain is when did the 'cash' from Tamil ... meaning a coin ... make it's first showing?Well, we known that the Oxfd Dict Online (ODO) says "late 16th Century" ... Can't get much later than the 1596 of the supposed French/Italian upspring of 'cash'. My thoughts are that the Tamil 'cash' is the true root. The ODO says that the Tamil rooted 'cash' was swayd by the French rooted 'cash'. I was looking for any hard proof of that. It looks more like they had two choices and went with the French for the till as the root rather than the Tamil which truly meant money.

Another reason that English got swampt by Latinates is that many thought that Latin was the mother tung!

There was a general idea among many that all English was derived from Latin, for no better reason than because this was true of many borrowed words; … Skeat, p57, Sci. of Etymo.

Of this I am certain, that the Celtic and Armoric, and even the Sanskrit identities, are very often nothing but Latin itself, pura puta Latina vox. Thus the Armoric Pirgrin and Relizhon must be corruptions of Peregrinus and Religionis, the Cornish Paun of Pavonis, and the German Ente of Anatis: … So the Northern Recht, Richt, Right, are from the Latin Rectus, … Valpy, pA3, "Virgilian Hours"

Benefit: what was the middle English word for this?
In wills and conveyancing the phrase " to the use and behoof of someone" was standard usage until 20th century; but nowadays using "behoof" outside the word-string "for his/her/their own behoof" sounds strange.

What is the link to behoove/behove and were these doing-words erstly used in 1st and 2nd person and not hedged-in to the impersonal word-string "it behoves us all"?