Username
Ængelfolc
Member Since
February 28, 2011
Total number of comments
675
Total number of votes received
68
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“Anglish”
- April 21, 2011, 8:53am
Wilkins, Wilkinson (Anglo-Norman meaning "Son of the Child of William", from the Normanized Germanic personal name William + kin (dim suffix meaning 'child, small, offspring', + son "son of")
Atkinson (Anglo-Scots, from Atkin, Aitken (Scot), Aiken (N.Ireland var. of Aitken) meaning 'little Adam, 'Child of Adam' + son)
Hopkinson (English-Norman from Hobb, Hobbs, Hobbes (pet form of Germanic personal name Robert) + kin (dim. suffix) + son)
Hodge, Hodges, Hodgkin, Hodgkins, Hodgkinson (Anglo-Norman, from Hodge (either from Germanic personal name Roger or the nickname Hocg, Hogge 'hog' +kin +son)
No Dutch here....just Anglo-Norman Germanic names.
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 8:51pm
@Stanmund:
'Firkin' means "fourth of a barrel of brew" or "half of a kilderkin". (1400-1450 ferdekyn, ferdkyn, firdekyn, also ferthekin). It is from Middle Dutch *vierdekijn" (vierde 'fouth' + -kijn dim. suffix, meaning "little fourth". A 'kilderkin' (O.Dutch 'kindeken' or 'kinneken', 1570. kylderkin, which is about 81.83 L) was an old English unit of volume equal to half a barrel or two firkins of ale or beer.
"Four" (foh-ur) was 'fēower' in Old English. Cf. Old Frisian fiūwer, Old Norse fjōrir.THe word four is fine. Just say it like an Icelander "foh-ūrr" by deepening the 'u' and rolling the 'r' really hard. Better?
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 7:59pm
"...whatever you call William's mates and offspring..."
Guillaume le Bâtard and his lieutenants were mainly Normans, Flemish, French, and Bretons.
The offspring of these 'Normans' were Anglo-Normans > their offspring were English.
"Norman-French" is one of the ways to name the tongue they spoke.
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 7:47pm
@jayles: "I must be halfway extinct then..."
All it takes, is for 'cultural relativism' to take hold, and for the lead culture to breakdown because of severely misguided guilt or some other such nonsense.
Why should it be wrong for all new-comers to be mindful of the culture of any given land? The short answer? It is not and never has been.
Has this happened where you live?
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 7:26pm
Another root for "Sterling":
A much better etymology (I think) is given by Frank Stenton and Michael Dolley in their book "Anglo Saxon Coins". It answers all of the historical and linguistic questions almost beyond strife.
The new coin minted after 1066 was heavier, of a stable weight, and of better metal quality than other money coins. This would have meant that a new special name was needed, like the unchanging integrity of the 'aureus solidus' minted under Constantine.
The thought put forth follows thusly:
L. solidus translated to Gk. στερεός (stēreos, 'hard,stiff, solid'. Cf. austere) < from Indo-Germanic *st(h)er (stiff, rigid), cf. ME/ Scottish dialect 'steer' (13th c., 'strong, stout'), North English dialect ster, stere, steer (strong, stout), from unattested OE *stēre or *stiēre (strong, rigid, fixed).
So, “stere-peninga” (Anglo-Norman penny, so as to distinguish from the coins in France) > "*ster+(l)ing" > "ster(l)ing".
Compare "farthing" (feorða(n)-peninga > feorðling, feorðung > farthing, meaning "feorða (fourth) 'of a' peninga (penny)").
Sterling is first found in writings around 1078 AD. The words 'esterlin' and 'sterilensis, sterilensium' were brought over into Old French/Normaund and Latin from Ænglisc.
See also: (Sterling) by Philip Grierson, in: DOLLEY, R.H.M. (ed.) Anglo Saxon Coins, Section XV. London, Methuen, 1961; “The Weights and Measures of England” (Science Museum, London, 1987) by Professor R. D. Connor.
Even with this it is still a Germanic-English word.
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 4:36pm
@Stanmund:
An oversight, that's all. It is rather straightforward, though, isn't it? Well, here you are:
Vall (pl. Vallen) from Germanic *wallaz, from L. uallum (likely borrowed in the late 5th c., along with 'street'). Cf. Old English ƿeall (weall, weal), Old Saxon 'Wal', German 'Wall', Dutch/ Frisian 'Wal'.
See: Walton, Wallsend, Walford, Wallmer (in Kent, means 'sea wall'), Anglo-Saxon Wea(l)lingaford
It is another Latin word I think is okay to stay.
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 2:43pm
@Stanmund: "...just Interesting that your explanations for the roots of 'sterling' and 'vallen' was made without using obvious contemporary words..."
Can you tell me more about what you mean? Why do you find it so striking? It is my belief that the root-word must be shown to see the truth of it.
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 11:29am
@Stanmund:
"Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star. Some early Norman coins bore a star.
The Old French 'esterlin' is found in a charter of the abbey of Les Préaux (1084-1104 AD). The OFr word is 'esterlin' is from a Germanic source: Initial French 'e'+ste(o)rlin-(g) or maybe from 'Easterlings' (some etymologists do not like this, though, because it does not neatly and comfortable follow English word development). I can't rule it out, however, since the "Easterlings" (from Northern Germany, were the first-ever moneyers in England.
Anyway, it's a West Germanic word....indeed it can stay!
“Anglish”
- April 20, 2011, 11:03am
@jayles: ""Such names indicated a descent from Anglo-Saxon nobility, who came to England after the Norman Conquest and are found in the Domesday book of 1086."
Surely the "Anglosaxon nobility" were already in England BEFORE the conquest?"
Yes, the first Anglosaxon nobility was in England before 1066. The above is merely saying that the names (Darcy, Percy, Baskerville, and others) came from Normandy. The fact that the writer used "Anglosaxon nobility" is not 100% right, but to me it'll do. Anglo-Norman nobility would have been more right.
Most of the "Anglosaxon" noble class was "Anglo-Norman" by 1086. The truth is borne out in the Domesday Book showing only 8% of English lands were owned by Anglosaxon Thegns with Anglosaxon names. Some of the Thegns may have taken Norman names to fit in. The Domesday book also shows that Duke William owned 20% of English land, the Church owned 25%, and the greatest followers of Duke William (all were not Norman btw) owned almost 50%.
Those that got a "lion's share" (25% of English lands) were: Bishop Odo de Bayeux (he was also the earl of Kent!), Count Robert de Mortain (1/2 brother of Duke WIlliam- they had the same mother), William fitz Osbern (he was over the Flemish division of William's army), Roger of Montgomery, William de Warenne (grandnephew of Gunnor and Duke Richard I or Normandy), Bishop Geoffery de Coutances, and Geoffery de Mandeville.
The Thegns that lived after 1066 had it rough. Most of them fled to Flanders, North to Scotland, or went East to become Varangian bodyguards
So, is it any wonder that folks with an Anglo-Norman name may have had family behaviors passed on to them to help them succeed, even into today? Look at the "wealth families" of the World. They keep their riches by teaching their children the family ways to forever grow and keep that wealth.
“Anglish”
The diminutive suffix -kin, of Teutonic origin, is found early in German and Dutch, but there is no trace of it in Old English.